Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 13419 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gladius_veritatis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8168
  • Reputation: +2544/-1122
  • Gender: Male
Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2022, 12:45:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • He did. Follow the link in my previous post. His motu proprio is on papalencyclicals.net.

    Some choose neither to hear nor to read that which goes against their fictitious narrative.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Michael Wilson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 27
    • Reputation: +49/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #166 on: February 27, 2022, 01:11:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg.
    Quote
    It's good that Fr. Loisy was excommunicated. Why didn't didn't Pope Pius X excommunicate all of the Modernists?
    St. Pius X (previously posted):
    Quote
    by Our Apostolic authority, We repeat and confirm not only that Decree of the Sacred Supreme Congregation, but also that Encyclical Letter of Ours, adding the penalty of excommunication against all who contradict them
    "The World must  conform to our Lord and not He to it."
    Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #167 on: February 27, 2022, 01:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg. St. Pius X (previously posted):

    You cited this quote as belonging to Pope Pius X:

    "By Our Apostolic authority, We repeat and confirm not only that Decree of the Sacred Supreme Congregation, but also that Encyclical Letter of Ours, adding the penalty of Excommunication against all who contradict them."

    Where does this quote originally come from? I don't mean an article from a layperson who quotes it, but what is the original docuмent by Pius X, from which your quote is derived?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #168 on: February 27, 2022, 02:10:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You cited this quote as belonging to Pope Pius X:

    "By Our Apostolic authority, We repeat and confirm not only that Decree of the Sacred Supreme Congregation, but also that Encyclical Letter of Ours, adding the penalty of Excommunication against all who contradict them."

    Where does this quote originally come from? I don't mean an article from a layperson who quotes it, but what is the original docuмent by Pius X, from which your quote is derived?

    There are just laymen and vagantes these days. If papalencyclicals.net is not good enough, the Modernists of vatican.va got a Latin version of the text:

    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x/la/motu_proprio/do%63uments/hf_p-x_motu-proprio_19071118_praestantia-scripturae.html
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #169 on: February 27, 2022, 05:34:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some choose neither to hear nor to read that which goes against their fictitious narrative.

    True. Plus in this special case we have the SSPX, named after St. Pius X, which since it's foundation managed to fail to inform people about the real situation. They've talked a lot about Modernism, called out many Modernists, but still treated them as Catholics, as if they were Catholics.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Michael Wilson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 27
    • Reputation: +49/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #170 on: February 27, 2022, 05:42:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    my mistake, I forgot to post the reference; its from the Denzinger, Pius X, "Praestantia Scriptura" Dz-2114
    https://patristica.net/denzinger/#n2100
    "The World must  conform to our Lord and not He to it."
    Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #171 on: February 27, 2022, 07:54:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    my mistake, I forgot to post the reference; its from the Denzinger, Pius X, "Praestantia Scriptura" Dz-2114
    https://patristica.net/denzinger/#n2100

    Thanks for providing a source. It comes from a Motu Proprio called, "Praestantia Scriptura" by Pope Pius X. Unfortunately, the Popes aren't bound, as far as I know, by Motu Proprios of other popes. But still, it may apply to others in the hierarchy, but how much force does a Motu Proprio really have? After all, it's obvious that all of the Modernists in the Church at that time didn't leave the Church after fearing an automatic excommunication by the above Motu Proprio. They probably ignored it. 

    I don't understand why Pope Pius X didn't call a Council in order to address the heresy of Modernism. That's what Councils are supposed to be for - to address error, and clarify and promote truth. It would have been more binding of course if a Council had condemned the heresy of Modernism. Though the Modernists may still have ignored it. Why God allowed the Crisis to occur isn't really clear. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Michael Wilson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 27
    • Reputation: +49/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #172 on: February 27, 2022, 08:43:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    "Popes are not bound by the M.P.'s Of other Popes"
    I didn't know that they weren't. I'm interested in your source.
    "The World must  conform to our Lord and not He to it."
    Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP


    Offline Michael Wilson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 27
    • Reputation: +49/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #173 on: February 27, 2022, 08:45:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • True. Plus in this special case we have the SSPX, named after St. Pius X, which since it's foundation managed to fail to inform people about the real situation. They've talked a lot about Modernism, called out many Modernists, but still treated them as Catholics, as if they were Catholics.
    How "did they treat them as Catholics"?  You treat people as Catholics, by threatening them with excommunication?
    "The World must  conform to our Lord and not He to it."
    Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #174 on: February 28, 2022, 12:55:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How "did they treat them as Catholics"?  You treat people as Catholics, by threatening them with excommunication?

    They'd still be Catholic, yes. Excommunication doesn't take that away. Or the threat of it. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #175 on: February 28, 2022, 01:00:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    "Popes are not bound by the M.P.'s Of other Popes"
    I didn't know that they weren't. I'm interested in your source.

    How is a Motu Proprio binding on any future Pope? It's not like it's a de fide docuмent. And besides - the Pope is judged by no one. Canon law does not apply to Popes, so why would a Motu Proprio? 

    Are you fairly new to Catholicism or sedevacantism? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #176 on: February 28, 2022, 01:41:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How "did they treat them as Catholics"?  You treat people as Catholics, by threatening them with excommunication?

    They treated and treat Modernists as if they were Catholics, which they aren't.

    It isn't necessary to excommunicate Modernists, because Pope St. Pius already did. 

    The SSPX can't excommunicate anybody anyway. They don't have any authority 
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Michael Wilson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 27
    • Reputation: +49/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #177 on: February 28, 2022, 04:21:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    Quote
    What did Pope Pius X say about Modernism? Did he say that all Modernists are not at all Catholic..[/size]
    Yes, he did. He said that the Modernists were "the worse enemies of the Church": (Pascendi Domini)
    Quote
    thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious daring, they reduce to a simple, mere man
    3. Though they express astonishment themselves, no one can justly be surprised that We number such men among the enemies of the Church,
    "enemies of the Church"; "with sacrilegious daring reduce to a simple, mere man"
    Meg,
    can a person who denies the divine nature of Our Lord be considered a Catholic?
    Quote
    Why didn't didn't Pope Pius X excommunicate all of the Modernists?
    Quote
    Why didn't didn't Pope Pius X excommunicate all of the Modernists?
    Quote
    Where does this quote originally come from?
    So we finally arrive that Pope Pius X did excommunicate all Modernists:
    Quote
    "By Our Apostolic authority, We repeat and confirm not only that Decree of the Sacred Supreme Congregation, but also that Encyclical Letter of Ours, adding the penalty of Excommunication against all who contradict them."
    Now you switch the issue:
    Quote
    but how much force does a Motu Proprio really have?
    At the time it was promulgated it had effect for the whole Church.
    But I agree that the "excommunication" part did not bind his successors; but it remained in effect until the Papacy of Paul VI.
    Quote
    They'd still be Catholic, yes. Excommunication doesn't take that away. Or the threat of it.
    According to Dr. Ott in "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" pg. 311: Not to be counted as members of the Church: "Excommunicati vitandi (CIC 2258).  Excommunicati tolerati, according to the opinion almost generally held today, which is confirmed by CIC 2266, remain members of the Church....". So if the Modernists were "vitandi" as in the case of Loisy and Tyrrell, then they were not members of the Church.
    "The World must  conform to our Lord and not He to it."
    Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8168
    • Reputation: +2544/-1122
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #178 on: February 28, 2022, 04:25:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How is a Motu Proprio binding on any future Pope? It's not like it's a de fide docuмent.

    :laugh1: It doesn't matter what he or anyone says.  You'll never admit you are wrong.  I would normally encourage you to have the honesty and decency to admit it, but we all know that is pointless.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1256
    • Reputation: +571/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #179 on: February 28, 2022, 05:07:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How is a Motu Proprio binding on any future Pope? It's not like it's a de fide docuмent. And besides - the Pope is judged by no one. Canon law does not apply to Popes, so why would a Motu Proprio?

    Are you fairly new to Catholicism or sedevacantism?

    Meg, you are correct that one Pope's Motu Proprio can be abrogated, in whole or in part, by a future Pope. The Motu Proprio is similar to a regulatory rule. Traditionally it was understood to apply to the regulation of matters in the Papal States. Post Vatican-II it has been used as the vehicle of choice for various rules which the Vatican-II Popes understood would be modified by their successors. So the expectation of a future modification was built-in by using the form of the motu proprio. This was to get the laity into the dialectical back-and-forth that we see with the post Vatican-II era. Two steps forward and one step back. And on and on.

    However, the Pope is NEVER above the canon law. Canon Law contains three elements: natural law, divine law, and human law. The Pope is always bound by natural law and divine law. He cannot legitimately change canons that reflect natural or divine law. He can, however, change, using proper legislative procedures, any human law in Canon Law. But until he officially changes the law, he is bound by the current law.

    And some statements by previous Popes cannot be changed legitimately by their successors. These statements touch on infallibility when the Pope in question explicitly invokes his Apostolic Authority and binds the Universal Church in perpetuity on matters of Faith and Morals.

    Finally, a Pope can never promulgate an unjust or unreasonable dictate that has the binding force of law. Paraphrasing St. Thomas Aquinas, "an unjust law is no law at all." See Article 4 on this page of the Summa Theologiae:

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2096.htm