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Author Topic: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome  (Read 3712 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #140 on: Today at 12:10:08 PM »
How can anyone prove that any Saint has ever died without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism?
Exactly.

It is just as easy to speculate (even easier if you have the faith) that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Finally, in Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. quotes Brother Francis:
St. Aiphonsus de Liguori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.



Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #141 on: Today at 12:19:23 PM »
I never said they were. You, on the other hand, claimed BOB didn't necessitate a perfect act of love and Scripture contradicts you.
Water baptism doesn’t require a perfect act of love.  Go read Trent.  Bob doesn’t either, BECAUSE ITS ALSO THE SACRAMENT.  Blood is just substituted for the water.  Why is this so difficult?


Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #142 on: Today at 01:43:10 PM »
Water baptism doesn’t require a perfect act of love.  Go read Trent.  Bob doesn’t either, BECAUSE ITS ALSO THE SACRAMENT.  Blood is just substituted for the water.  Why is this so difficult?
First : 

Your definition of baptism of blood is not the standard one.

Dying isn't sufficient to get baptism of blood. Baptism of blood necessitates martyrdom, moreover martyrdom doesn't necessarily mean that one actually sheds their blood, there are methods of execution that do not make their victim bleed.

A catechumen who gets murdered (without dying as a martyr) is not subject to baptism of blood but of baptism of desire.

Secondly : 

Do you even understand WHY God created the sacrament of baptism in the first place?


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #143 on: Today at 01:48:32 PM »
First :

Your definition of baptism of blood is not the standard one.

Dying isn't sufficient to get baptism of blood. Baptism of blood necessitates martyrdom, moreover martyrdom doesn't necessarily mean that one actually sheds their blood, there are methods of execution that do not make their victim bleed.

A catechumen who gets murdered (without dying as a martyr) is not subject to baptism of blood but of baptism of desire.
You should stop, think, and rewrite the above.  It makes no sense.

Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #144 on: Today at 02:41:04 PM »
You should stop, think, and rewrite the above.  It makes no sense.
If a Catechumen falls off the stairs and bleeds to their death, does that constitute baptism of blood?

If a Catechumen gets αssαssιnαtҽd through stabbing to the death because they owed money to some criminal, does that constitute baptism of blood?

No, it does not. They would be subject to baptism of desire, not subject to baptism of blood.

Also, some Catechumens were burnt to death as an example. Others were drowned. And so on and so on. How would they even get baptized in their blood if their blood doesn't flow because of the execution method?

Do I need to tell you about all the tortures the psychopathic roman authorities used to kill Catholics?