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Author Topic: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome  (Read 3773 times)

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Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #125 on: Today at 08:39:30 AM »
Catechumens were normally, as part of church procedure, baptized in times of emergency persecutions.  They were still called catechumens because they had not finished their classes and had not formally entered the church during Easter/Pentecost.  But they were baptized.  This is a fact.
It is also fact that we have Saints in the official martyrology who have been venerated for 1700 years BECAUSE THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THEIR OWN BLOOD.

As an example, Saint Emerentiana is clearly told by Tradition passed down for more than 1700 years to have been baptized in her own blood. 

Can you explain to me how can someone do an act of martyrdom WITHOUT the theological virtues necessary to motivate such an act? 

ST IIa-IIae, q. 124, a. 2, ad 2 :

« Ad actum martyrii inclinat quidem caritas sicut primum et principale motivum, per modum virtutis imperantis, fortitudo autem sicut motivum proprium, per modum virtutis elicientis. Et inde etiam est quod martyrium est actus caritatis ut imperantis, fortitudinis autem ut elicientis. Et inde est quod utramque virtutem manifestat. Quod autem sit meritorium, habet ex caritate, sicut et quilibet virtutis actus. Et ideo sine caritate non valet. »


"Charity inclines one to the act of martyrdom, as its first and chief motive cause, being the virtue commanding it, whereas fortitude inclines thereto as being its proper motive cause, being the virtue that elicits it. Hence martyrdom is an act of charity as commanding, and of fortitude as eliciting. For this reason also it manifests both virtues. It is due to charity that it is meritorious, like any other act of virtue: and for this reason it avails not without charity."


ST IIa-IIae, q. 124, a. 2, obj. 2 :

« Ad martyrium praecipue inclinat caritas, unde in quodam sermone Maximi dicitur, "caritas Christi in martyribus suis vicit." Maxime etiam caritas per actum martyrii manifestatur, secundum illud Ioan. XV, "maiorem dilectionem nemo habet quam ut animam suam ponat quis pro amicis suis." Sine caritate etiam martyrium nihil valet, secundum illud I ad Cor. XIII, "si tradidero corpus meum ita ut ardeam, caritatem autem non habuero, nihil mihi prodest." »


"Charity is the chief incentive to martyrdom: Thus Maximus says in a sermon: 'The charity of Christ is victorious in His martyrs.' Again the greatest proof of charity lies in the act of martyrdom, according to Jn. 15:13, 'Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' Moreover without charity martyrdom avails nothing, according to 1 Cor. 13:3, 'If I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.'"

ST IIa-IIae, q. 124, a. 3, corpus :

« Martyrium autem, inter omnes actus virtuosos, maxime demonstrat perfectionem caritatis. Quia tanto magis ostenditur aliquis aliquam rem amare, quanto pro ea rem magis amatam contemnit, et rem magis odiosam eligit pati. (…) Patet quod martyrium inter ceteros actus humanos est perfectior secundum suum genus, quasi maximae caritatis signum, secundum illud Ioan. XV, "maiorem caritatem nemo habet quam ut animam suam ponat quis pro amicis suis." »


"Of all virtuous acts martyrdom is the greatest proof of the perfection of charity: since a man's love for a thing is proved to be so much the greater, according as that which he despises for its sake is more dear to him, or that which he chooses to suffer for its sake is more odious. (…) It is clear that martyrdom is the most perfect of human acts in respect of its genus, as being the sign of the greatest charity, according to Jn. 15:13: 'Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.'"


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Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #126 on: Today at 08:59:25 AM »
It is also fact that we have Saints in the official martyrology who have been venerated for 1700 years BECAUSE THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THEIR OWN BLOOD.

As an example, Saint Emerentiana is clearly told by Tradition passed down for more than 1700 years to have been baptized in her own blood.

Can you explain to me how can someone do an act of martyrdom WITHOUT the theological virtues necessary to motivate such an act?
The Church Fathers tell us that BOB was the actual sacrament, with the angels saying the words and the blood taking the place of water.  So she was either baptized when the persecution started (probable) or she was baptized during her martyrdom.  Because she was baptized before she died (by angels), she had the grace to fulfill her martyrdom.

Your point is irrelevant.  Trent doesn't speak of BOB and I have no problem with it, except that it's not really a "3rd baptism", because it is the sacrament itself.  In times of emergency, the Church allows certain fluids to be used in baptism.  Blood, in this case, can be used for water.  BOB is nothing more than the sacrament using blood.

So there aren't 3 baptisms but just "2".  The actual sacrament and the theological opinion of desire.


Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #127 on: Today at 09:07:54 AM »
It is also fact that we have Saints in the official martyrology who have been venerated for 1700 years BECAUSE THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THEIR OWN BLOOD.

As an example, Saint Emerentiana is clearly told by Tradition passed down for more than 1700 years to have been baptized in her own blood.
How can anyone prove that any Saint has ever died without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism?

Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #128 on: Today at 09:12:41 AM »
The Church Fathers tell us that BOB was the actual sacrament, with the angels saying the words and the blood taking the place of water.  So she was either baptized when the persecution started (probable) or she was baptized during her martyrdom.  Because she was baptized before she died (by angels), she had the grace to fulfill her martyrdom.

Your point is irrelevant.  Trent doesn't speak of BOB and I have no problem with it, except that it's not really a "3rd baptism", because it is the sacrament itself.  In times of emergency, the Church allows certain fluids to be used in baptism.  Blood, in this case, can be used for water.  BOB is nothing more than the sacrament using blood.

So there aren't 3 baptisms but just "2".  The actual sacrament and the theological opinion of desire.
You seem to not understand the situation I am talking about, so I'll walk you through it step by step. 

Let's go back in time for a bit. We go back to Roman times.

Imagine you are a catechumen. You are told by Roman authorities to either bow to a statue of their emperor or they will execute you on the spot. 

You refuse.

You are then executed, you get baptized in your own blood. 

This isn't a random example I invented, this is something that actually happened during those times. Can you explain to me how you were able to refuse in this situation when knowing you'd get killed, if you didn't have charity?


Re: FDS: Feeney Derangement Syndrome
« Reply #129 on: Today at 09:24:47 AM »
Material heterodoxy is in the intellect. Formal heterodoxy is in the will.  Before the definition of the Immaculate Conception there were a number of Catholic theologians who did not hold the opinion of Mary's Immaculate Conception - this was materially heterodox.  If a theologian today holds this position, he is formally heterodox because he willfully rejects a doctrine which the Church has formally defined.

I have had priests give me Holy Communion knowing full well that I support Fr. Feeney because they believed that my "error" was only material, not formal.  I have had them say, "Oh Bryan, I will give you Holy Communion even though you believe Fr. Feeney because you just do not know any better."
You are describing formal and material heresy.  This is not the same as heterodox.