Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Classiccom on March 18, 2010, 09:21:46 AM

Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Classiccom on March 18, 2010, 09:21:46 AM
http://www.traditio.com/comment/com1003.htm

Fatima Prediction in Doubt, as Portugal Abandons the
 "Dogma of the Faith"

Portugual's Parliament Approves the Immoral Horror of "gαy Marriage"

From: The Fathers

Now that Once-Catholic Portugal Has Been Taken over by the Newchurch of the New Ordo Our Lady's Prediction Has Been Brought into Doubt
That the Dogma of the Faith Will Always Be Preserved in Portugal
As Portugal Approves "gαy Marriage"

Supposedly, the "Third Secret of Fatima" contained the following prediction: "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved." If that is true, Portugal has apparently made Our Lady of Fatima out to be a liar, when, on March 5, 2010, the Portuguese parliament approved 125-99 the immoral horror of "gαy marriage." The parliament wouldn't even let the people vote on the matter in a referendum.

Portugal becomes the sixth country in once-Catholic Europe to recognize this perversion in a country where sodomy was a crime there until 1982. Abortion was rescinded as a crime in 2008. The first "gαy marriage" ceremonies will take place in April 2010, a month before Benedict-Ratzinger is supposed to visit to give the once-Catholic country to give it his Novus Ordo blessing. So, although Portugal is sinking fast into unCatholic immorality, the Newpope of Newchurch singles out a sodomy- and abortion-happy country for a blessing instead of an interdict! [Some information for this Commentary was contributed by the Sydney Morning Herald.]
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: sedetrad on March 18, 2010, 09:28:23 AM
If portugal has ten traditional Catholic families, then it has preserved the dogma of the faith. If it has one saintly trad Cath, then it has preserved the dogma of the faith.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Elizabeth on March 18, 2010, 09:44:01 AM
The sentence fragment 'In Portugal the dogma of the Faith

will always be preserved, etc.'  is not a complee thought.

What does the rest of the sentence say?  

Until the rise of Anitchrist?

In a few remote monasteries?

Until a sacreligious shrine is built?

Not that the Parlimentary ruling is something to toss off lightly, not at all.  Look what happened to Haiti right afterwards.

The possibilites are endless.

The "Fathers" have become very dour and depressing in the past several years.

And what Sedetrad said is true, anyway.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Classiccom on March 18, 2010, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: sedetrad
If portugal has ten traditional Catholic families, then it has preserved the dogma of the faith. If it has one saintly trad Cath, then it has preserved the dogma of the faith.


=====================

 So I guess you are saying this is one particular exclusion were you can't judge by the fruits. My intuition tells me that fleeing from Sodom would be the appropriate response. No wonder there are people here who tell you not to talk about the bible. That could endanger churchianity.

Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 11:28:15 AM
As I've pointed out, "sempre" or "siempre" in the Romance languages does not mean forever as in saecula saeculorum, just continuously -- and it could in fact imply an "until".  An analogy in English can be seen in a phrase such as "I always drive my car to work."  It means that I never do anything else, not that I'll be driving my car to work for the rest of my life.

Nevertheless, I would urge everyone to look at my "What is heresy?" thread.  Notice how Our Lady referred specifically to the "dogma" of the Faith and not the Faith as a whole.  She could be saying that basic dogmas will be retained (as they in fact still officially are in the Novus Ordo) with an avalanche of theological error.  There's a world of difference between heresy (corollary to dogma) and error.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Alexandria on March 18, 2010, 11:45:27 AM
An SSPX priest, who had spent a few years in Portugal, told me in the mid-nineties that Portugal was gone regarding the faith, and that caused him to wonder what exactly Our Lady meant by what she said.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Belloc on March 18, 2010, 11:47:12 AM
I never was a bigger supporter of "in Portugal the Dogma of Faith will always be preserved" part.......looking at Portugal today, they are little different than Spain, little better than Italy..........
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 12:13:21 PM
I agree that Portugal is no better than anywhere else in the world today.  I imagine that Our Lady brought up Portugal just because She was appearing there.  Also, Portugal did consecrate itself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and experienced something of a Catholic rebirth after that.  So She may be referring to that as well--without, again, the "sempre" necessarily meaning "forever" in the Romance languages.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 12:16:09 PM
So in Portugal the dogma of the Faith will continue to be preserved until [the horrors mentioned in the Third Secret].

Notice the "sempre" as "will continue to be" or "will continuously be" preserved ... until ...
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Raoul76 on March 18, 2010, 06:18:37 PM
Ladislaus said:
Quote
"She could be saying that basic dogmas will be retained (as they in fact still officially are in the Novus Ordo)..."


If that were true, then the whole world has kept the faith, and the Apostasy is all in my perfervid imagination.

So Ladislaus, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you, interested in purchasing?  

Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Raoul76 on March 18, 2010, 06:21:42 PM
"Sempre" means always.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Raoul76 on March 18, 2010, 06:24:15 PM
How do you explain that God sent His Mother down to Earth with an important secret which was then detained by John XXIII, as if a message straight from God's mother could be held up by bureaucratic red tape at Checkpoint Charlie?  I think if God has a real message to get through, it gets through.  
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 07:30:33 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
If that were true, then the whole world has kept the faith, and the Apostasy is all in my perfervid imagination.


"dogma" of the faith.  If you have a look, most mainline conservative Novus Ordo types still profess belief in all the dogmas of the Church.  Obviously, according to the polls, 80-90% of Novus Ordo pew-sitters are heretics on one point or another.

Again, Raoul, I think that you're missing the distinction between dogma (and, conversely, heresy) and theologically-certain truths (conversely, errors).
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 07:38:46 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
How do you explain that God sent His Mother down to Earth with an important secret which was then detained by John XXIII, as if a message straight from God's mother could be held up by bureaucratic red tape at Checkpoint Charlie?  I think if God has a real message to get through, it gets through.  


I already pointed out to you the precedent of the Sacred Heart of Jesus asking for the consecration of France.  God gave us free will.  Sometimes God keeps things in a certain amount of obscurity so that those of good faith can see them while those who are not cannot.  So most Traditional Catholics know full well that the Third Secret was a warning about Vatican II.

1960

January 25 strange light in the sky (January 25 J23 announces Vatican II)

leaks from Cardinals that it refers to an apostasy in the Church beginning at the top

Having lived through Vatican II now, we know full well what the Third Secret contains, and Our Blessed Mother knew that it would help console, comfort, and fortify us in these dark times to know that She had warned us about it, that V2 was in fact a great chastisement rather than a glorious renewal of the Church by the Holy Spirit.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2010, 07:45:15 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
"Sempre" means always.


Not necessarily in the sense of "forever"; it can mean "continuously" or, as I rendered it, will "continue to be" (and can almost anticipate an "until" [... Vatican II?] ).
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: GregorianChat on March 26, 2010, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth
The sentence fragment 'In Portugal the dogma of the Faith

will always be preserved, etc.'  is not a complee thought.

What does the rest of the sentence say?  

Until the rise of Anitchrist?

In a few remote monasteries?

Until a sacreligious shrine is built?

Not that the Parlimentary ruling is something to toss off lightly, not at all.  Look what happened to Haiti right afterwards.

The possibilites are endless.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: GregorianChat on March 26, 2010, 12:03:53 PM
I quoted Elizabeth above and agree with that part. The sentence was suppose to continue into the third secret. This is yet another reason out of many that I have to conclude that the "third secret" released by John Paul II is false.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Elizabeth on March 26, 2010, 01:35:15 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
How do you explain that God sent His Mother down to Earth with an important secret which was then detained by John XXIII, as if a message straight from God's mother could be held up by bureaucratic red tape at Checkpoint Charlie?  I think if God has a real message to get through, it gets through.  


I am sorry that nobody has helped you in your ignorance, and that I am not up to the task of convoluted lay internet theology.

How do you explain the countless miracles of the Saints and the ingratitude of men?  How do you explain our Lord's Crucifixion and rising from the dead and people still did not believe He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?

You think if God has a real message to get through, it gets through, do you?    :cry:  Well, people on earth do not always co-operate with God's grace.  That's a simple fact.

Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: Elizabeth on March 26, 2010, 01:40:20 PM
Hi Gregorian Chat, and welcome! :cheers:

If I recall, it was Fr. Paul Kramer who said that the then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the secret as revealed by JP2 was false.  And sadly, Card. Ratzinger basically pooh-poohed the whole thing himself.
Title: Fatima Prediction in Doubt
Post by: stevusmagnus on March 30, 2010, 07:45:54 PM
I have said and will continue to say that the "dogma of the faith" refers to the Eucharist and secondarily that only some souls will be saved, not all.

Why will this dogma be retained in Portugal? Because Portugal was one of only two nations (Poland is the other) whose Bishops Conference correctly translated the Novus Ordo words of consecration "pro multis" into the vernacular as "for many".

I believe it is possible that the mistranslation "for all" invalidates the consecration and thus Portugal is one of the few places where the vernacular New Mass is valid and thus the "dogma of the Faith", the Eucharist, is maintained.

In addition it reaffirms the vision Our Lady showed the children of Hell inhabited by demon and human souls.

I think it is an admonition that the Church will move towards universal salvation (JPII's position was very close to it, so is modern ecuмenism) gutting the dogma of the faith (necessity of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation), but in Portugal it will at least continue to exist.

My theory anyway...

http://www.unicornhosting.com/md1076/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=173&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 (http://www.unicornhosting.com/md1076/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=173&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

Quote

By Rev. Fr. Peter  R. Scott

...This particular change in the words of consecration, the most serious in the New Mass, was not a part of the New Mass as "promulgated" (Note that properly speaking it was not really promulgated, both from the point of view of the formalities involved and from that of content) by Pope Paul VI on April 3, 1969 in his letter Missale Romanum. In the Latin text the words "for many" are retained. This change is consequently one of translation. However, it was manifestly not by accident that in all the modern European languages except Portuguese and Polish this same "error" of translation was committed. It is a manifest effort to undermine the clear teaching found in all three synoptic Gospels that the efficacity of Christ's shedding His blood is limited to many souls, and not to all souls. The reason behind this change is consequently the modernist teaching on universal salvation, according to which Christ saved all human nature by his death on the Cross, whether people know it or not.

Since this is a change that manifestly undermines Catholic doctrine, it is equally clear that the traditional Catholic cannot accept it...