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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 05:43:49 AM

Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 05:43:49 AM
TheD,

Fatima is a false apparition. I know you have raised the apparition to the level of a dogma in your mind, but there are several ways we know Fatima is a false apparition:

(1) It occurred during the reign of antipope Benedict XV, without the "lady" condemning the visionaries' communion with an antipope;

(2) The "angel" allegedly gave First Communion to two visionaries that had not yet received First Communion in the Catholic Church, thereby breaking Church discipline, something that a messenger of God would never, ever do;

(3) The "angel" allegedly gave the Precious Blood to two visionaries, thereby breaking Church discipline, something that a messenger of God would never, ever do;

(4) The prophesies about Russia's conversion, the era of peace, and Portugal never losing the Faith all never came true;

(5) The Blessed Mother doesn't come to give "secrets", but instead comes to publicly urge the Faithful to repentance;

and

(6) Sister Lucia is an apostate who claimed communion with the Vatican II church, a church that believes Allah will judge mankind.

I know, I know, many believe that I have blasphemed with this post because how dare I denounce Fatima, because isn't it a dogma that the Blessed Virgin appeared there? NO.

It's dogma that you can't be justified without sacramental water baptism. It's dogma that a heretic is not a Catholic, let alone a Catholic pope. It's dogma that you don't receive the sacraments from non-Catholic priests. These are dogmas. Fatima is NOT a dogma. Fatima was most certainly a trick of the devil designed to keep the gullible hoping in vain for a restoration of the Vatican. Sorry to break the news to you people, that spiritual and theological restoration of the Vatican buildings isn't about to happen any time soon, if at all.

This is the Great Apostasy that Our Lord spoke of when He said, "If the time had not been shortened there would be no flesh saved." So those who are so bold as to laugh at the few Catholics left in the word, you laugh to your own damnations.

The dogmas are clear. It is your pride that obscures things.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Clovis on February 02, 2010, 08:22:47 AM
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
(3) The "angel" allegedly gave the Precious Blood to two visionaries, thereby breaking Church discipline, something that a messenger of God would never, ever do;  


In both the Coptic and the Byzantine rites the laity recieve the Precious Blood.

However you do raise many valid points. I know I what can be said maybe justly or unjustly against me saying this but my first reaction was to think that at the end of the day the events at Fatima are not that important...No one has declared belief in them De Fide and therefore it is pointless bringing it up in a theological debate as proof of anything as some people here have been doing.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
Quote from: Clovis
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
(3) The "angel" allegedly gave the Precious Blood to two visionaries, thereby breaking Church discipline, something that a messenger of God would never, ever do;  


In both the Coptic and the Byzantine rites the laity recieve the Precious Blood.


Thanks for pointing that out.  It would then depend under what bishop (a Latin rite or other rite) had jurisdiction over the visionaries.  If the bishop allow for it, then the alleged angel would not have done anything wrong in this regard.

Thanks again and good point.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Clovis
... my first reaction was to think that at the end of the day the events at Fatima are not that important...No one has declared belief in them De Fide and therefore it is pointless bringing it up in a theological debate as proof of anything as some people here have been doing.


Not true.  Just like a Catholic would be forced to rejected an alleged apparition of, say, Martin Luther, because if Jesus or Mary appeared to Luther it would have been to denounce and convert him, so too must a Catholic denounce Fatima because Mary would never have appeared to a schismatic child (remember Lucy was above the age of reason) without denouncing her and warning her of antipope Benedict XV.

And most certainly, Holy Communion could never, ever have been given to a schismatic Lucy, who was claiming allegiance to an antipope.  It is indirectly a denial of many dogmas to claim belief or even the allowed belief in Fatima as an authentic apparition.

Catholics must absolutely, in every detail, defend the Faith with precision and zeal, else heresies creep in.  Fatima must be denounced.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: TheD on February 02, 2010, 09:12:24 AM
1.) Which came first the chicken or the egg.  Do you hate Fatima because you first hated Benedict XV or did you reject B XV because you first despised Fatima?
For pts 2.)-3.) I wonder why no Priest ever questioned that at the time.  I guess they were outsmarted by three preschool age childeren.
4.) The consecration has yet to be done.
5.)What is your evidence, Our Lady does what the Lord commands.
6.) So did Fr. Feeney.  

In the end 'Pope' Augustine could invent something just as convincing in his basement.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: TheD
6.) So did Fr. Feeney.  


And your point?  "Fr." Feeney was a disgrace.  He most certainly was not a Catholic.  Not only was he a schismatic, as you rightly point out, but a heretic as well.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't even deserve comment.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: CM on February 02, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Father Feeney misread the Council of Trent Session 6 Chapter 4 to mean that a person could be justified with the desire for Baptism alone, and yet he believed that a person could not be saved without the sacrament of Baptism - but that's ridiculous.

Trent says "cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof".

If I say to you "It's impossible for me to cook without a stove or some food" It obviously does not logically follow that ALL I need to be able to cook is a stove or some food, but that I need both.

Likewise Trent is not saying "Here is what you need to be justified the laver or the desire", No, Trent is saying "Here are two things, and if either one or the other is MISSING you cannot be justified".
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: CM on February 02, 2010, 10:58:05 AM
Raoul76 made a good point about Fatima - about how the "O Seculo" the Masonic Atheistic newspaper the very next day proclaimed Fatima to be a "Sign from Heaven".  They sure seemed willing to support the Church, those Masons...
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: gladius_veritatis on February 02, 2010, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: CM
If I say to you "It's impossible for me to cook without a stove or some food" It obviously does not logically follow that ALL I need to be able to cook is a stove or some food, but that I need both.


The logical sloppiness, if any, would be due to your own sloppiness in communicating your meaning via the spoken word.

Quote
Likewise Trent is not saying "Here is what you need to be justified the laver or the desire", No, Trent is saying "Here are two things, and if either one or the other is MISSING you cannot be justified".


You are, effectively, positing the idea that Trent's language is sloppy, unclear, etc. -- to such a degree that it needs interpretation/augmentation/clarification to be correctly understood.

When "or" is used without "either", how do you understand it?  Well, unless the "either" can be clearly shown to be present in the decree from Trent, it is nonsense to pretend it is there.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: CM on February 02, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
I thought you spoke Latin Eamon.

Go translate 'aut (http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml)'
 :cowboy:
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: CMMM on February 02, 2010, 04:25:43 PM
Quote from: CM
I thought you spoke Latin Eamon.

Go translate 'aut (http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml)'
 :cowboy:


http://www.jstor.org/pss/3327078

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2009/02/three-senses-of-or-.html

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/disjunction/

GO GO GO CM!

 :jumping2:
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Raoul76 on February 02, 2010, 05:53:44 PM
Anyone who studies Fatima even for an afternoon will be inundated with things that just don't add up.

( 1 ) It promises an age of peace if the consecration of Russia is fulfilled, but who wants ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic peace?  In 1917 the last Catholic monarchy was about to fall.  This is nothing but the same "peace" sold by Pacelli, making me believe that there is a Masonic element to Fatima.

( 2 ) The first priest to interview Lucia saw the "finger of the devil" in her claims, and so do I.

( 3 ) Lucia as an adult would boast about receiving her first Communion at the age of 6.  Why would Mary pick such a prideful child/woman to reveal anything to?

( 4 ) There is something far too "fairy tale" for my liking about Fatima, complete with the big bad wolf, in this case the Evil Freemasonic Mayor who Threatened to Boil the Wittle Cute Children Alive in a Big Cauldron.  I don't like how Catholics get all sentimental and Spielbergian about Fatima, some of them getting excited about corny, cheesy films on the subject.

( 5 ) The all-important consecration of Russia was supposedly revealed to Lucy in 1917, but it wasn't until another apparition of "Mary" to Lucy in 1929 that she was allowed to reveal this revelation.  "Mary" then allowed Russian errors to spread for a full twelve years before authorizing Lucy to say anything.  

( 6 )  There are differing reports about the consecration of Russia, some saying that Lucy said in 1933 that it was already too late.  No one agrees on when the deadline is or if there's a deadline at all.  Father Gruner acts as if it can still be done now even though we don't have a Pope.  This keeps people in a drooling trance while they sit and pray una cuм with these heresiarch anti-Popes.

( 7 ) I have referred to how Fatima got a big boost from being published as a real event in a Freemasonic newspaper.  Bishop Fulton Sheen, likewise, was a tool of Bolshevik Jews and he also gave it a big boost.  Always there is this connection to ʝʊdɛօ-Masonry.  

And please, don't even try to argue with me about Fulton Sheen working for Jews.  If there is one thing that I know like the back of my hand, it is Hollywood.  I grew up in the thick of this Jєωιѕн stew and tried to become famous here.  YOU DO NOT GET ON TV WITHOUT LICKING THE Jєωιѕн CLOVEN HOOF.

( 8 ) What are the "errors of Russia" anyway?  State-sponsored atheism?  Am I the only one who saw how this fear of Russia, bolstered by Fatima, led Americans into even more pride than they already possessed, and how it caused them to begin promoting religious liberty as a great good against the atheism of Russia?  

Instead of looking inwards at their own errors, filtered into their brains by Cardinal Gibbons, Americans turned outwards and demonized Russia.  They threw caution to the wind and thoroughly gave in to the spirit of 1776 which they saw as a bulwark against communism when it was nothing of the kind.  Russian communism is merely the "antithesis" to the "synthesis" of the ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic democracies in the Hegelian schema.  

There is a connection between blind, arrogant American patriotism and Fatima, a connection exemplified by Bishop Fulton Sheen.  I'll grant you, this could be blamed on a misinterpretation of Fatima rather than Fatima itself.  But it does make the Fatima "Mary" seem like a past-master of the Hegelian dialectic!  There were many more errors going around in 1917 than just the errors of Russia.

( 9 ) The consecration of Russia could not be more irrelevant to the present crisis.  Whether Fatima was a real apparition or not, distortions of it have actually become harmful to the faith.

*****

Conclusion:  Whether Fatima is true or false, leave it alone already.  If I hear one more time about consecrating Russia... The Catholics are reduced to total confusion and people are worrying about consecrating Russia.  This is insanity!  

What we know is that Mary will one day save the world.  Do we need Fatima to know this?  No, it is simply a repeat of what was told to St. Dominic.  This, like the call to repentance, could simply be a way for the demonic apparition to win the trust of its hearers before slipping in the poision.  We have seen in easily-disproved apparitions like Medjugorje that the devil may be using witch-seers to mix truth with lies.  

Why is Fatima exempt from this suspicion?  Just because it's more believable than Medjugorje?  More believable does not mean entirely believable.

Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Raoul76 on February 02, 2010, 05:54:29 PM
Please don't start the "aut" debate here.  We're all sloppy, and I'm the worst offender, when it comes to staying on topic.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Caminus on February 02, 2010, 06:32:27 PM
Your questions evince more of your own ignorance than problems with Fatima per se.  After all, is it really a valid objection that just because you don't understand something it must be avoided for that is essentially what your list implies.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: fkpagnanelli on February 02, 2010, 06:48:59 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
Anyone who studies Fatima even for an afternoon will be inundated with things that just don't add up.


Thank you for that informative post.  I agree with everything you said, except you do not believe that Fatima must be rejected, but it must.  All these Freemasonic ties lead right back to the Vatican and antipope Benedict XV.  Anyone who studies Della Chiesa for even an afternoon will be inundated with heresies and Freemasonic overtures in all his encyclicals.  Oh not to mention, Della Chiesa's mentor was "cardinal" Rampolla, a notorious Freemason.  

Do you really think Della Chiesa didn't know?  Certainly, he did.  Della Chiesa was handpicked by the modernists, as was Pacelli.

The Vatican fell in 1914, boys!  That you have to get right.  You claim submission to an antipope, you follow that antipope right to hell.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: roscoe on February 02, 2010, 07:22:51 PM
The Cardinal Rampolla was a freemason myth has been debunked repeatedly on this site by moi. He Very rarely and only casually saw Della Chiesa for the last 26 yrs of his life-- that is a long time. Wake up Catholics!!!
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: gladius_veritatis on February 02, 2010, 08:26:38 PM
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
Fatima is a false apparition.


Your opinion is noted.

Quote
I know you have raised the apparition to the level of a dogma in your mind...


Would you care to share his words that show this, or would you care to give an explanation of your other methods of knowing such a thing about the thoughts of another person?
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Caminus on February 02, 2010, 08:32:06 PM
Well, see, since they feel free to inject thoughts into the minds of dead Popes, that ain't nothin'.  See, its all in the habit.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2010, 06:33:11 AM
Clearly you guys reject Fatima because it flies in the face of your >PiusX antipopes theory.  Then you go looking for other "reasons" to back up your claim.

Lots of people had problems with things at Lourdes and LaSalette as well.

Fatima has received at least implicit approval from the Church.  So again here you have exposed the sedevacantist antipope conundrum.  If the Popes have approved Fatima, it gives credibility to it.

At every turn, you show that with sedevacantism you turn your private judgment into your own little magisterium.  Oh, which by the way is absolutely the same subjectivist error that has been undermining EENS all these years.  You find yourself in a web of contradictions.  You might as well be Pope Augustine, for anyone who rejects your decrees and theological conclusions is outside the Church--i.e., anyone not in subjection to CM/fk cannot be saved.

Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: ggreg on July 09, 2012, 06:38:29 PM
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
Quote from: Raoul76
Anyone who studies Fatima even for an afternoon will be inundated with things that just don't add up.


Thank you for that informative post.  I agree with everything you said, except you do not believe that Fatima must be rejected, but it must.  All these Freemasonic ties lead right back to the Vatican and antipope Benedict XV.  Anyone who studies Della Chiesa for even an afternoon will be inundated with heresies and Freemasonic overtures in all his encyclicals.  Oh not to mention, Della Chiesa's mentor was "cardinal" Rampolla, a notorious Freemason.  

Do you really think Della Chiesa didn't know?  Certainly, he did.  Della Chiesa was handpicked by the modernists, as was Pacelli.

The Vatican fell in 1914, boys!  That you have to get right.  You claim submission to an antipope, you follow that antipope right to hell.


What would you suggest happened on October 13th 1917 then when the "miracle of the Sun" happened?
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 10, 2012, 07:20:02 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
Quote from: Raoul76
Anyone who studies Fatima even for an afternoon will be inundated with things that just don't add up.


Thank you for that informative post.  I agree with everything you said, except you do not believe that Fatima must be rejected, but it must.  All these Freemasonic ties lead right back to the Vatican and antipope Benedict XV.  Anyone who studies Della Chiesa for even an afternoon will be inundated with heresies and Freemasonic overtures in all his encyclicals.  Oh not to mention, Della Chiesa's mentor was "cardinal" Rampolla, a notorious Freemason.  

Do you really think Della Chiesa didn't know?  Certainly, he did.  Della Chiesa was handpicked by the modernists, as was Pacelli.

The Vatican fell in 1914, boys!  That you have to get right.  You claim submission to an antipope, you follow that antipope right to hell.


What would you suggest happened on October 13th 1917 then when the "miracle of the Sun" happened?


Raoul76 is certainly capable of speaking for himself but in his byline (or is it signature line) he makes it clear that his past views on Fatima are to be ignored.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: theology101 on July 10, 2012, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: fkpagnanelli

(5) The Blessed Mother doesn't come to give "secrets", but instead comes to publicly urge the Faithful to repentance;


This is really what I would have the most problem with. I distrust any Christian message that is "secret". The Gospel is meant for all the world, not a select few, and so I wonder about that. Smacks of Gnosticism almost, as though there is some secret knowledge that only a few in the Church are privileged with.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: lefebvre_fan on July 10, 2012, 09:40:03 PM
Quote from: theology101
Quote from: fkpagnanelli

(5) The Blessed Mother doesn't come to give "secrets", but instead comes to publicly urge the Faithful to repentance;


This is really what I would have the most problem with. I distrust any Christian message that is "secret". The Gospel is meant for all the world, not a select few, and so I wonder about that. Smacks of Gnosticism almost, as though there is some secret knowledge that only a few in the Church are privileged with.


It's not like such a thing would be unheard of, though. Our Lady of La Salette confided a secret to each of the visionaries, Maximin and Mélanie, who sent them to Pius IX and which have never been published in their original versions (Mélanie later published her secret, although the extent to which it adheres to the original version or is a product of her own creation remains unclear).
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Sigismund on July 10, 2012, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
Quote from: Clovis
Quote from: fkpagnanelli
(3) The "angel" allegedly gave the Precious Blood to two visionaries, thereby breaking Church discipline, something that a messenger of God would never, ever do;  


In both the Coptic and the Byzantine rites the laity recieve the Precious Blood.


Thanks for pointing that out.  It would then depend under what bishop (a Latin rite or other rite) had jurisdiction over the visionaries.  If the bishop allow for it, then the alleged angel would not have done anything wrong in this regard.

Thanks again and good point.


Um... do you really think angles need a bishop's permission for anything?  I feel pretty confident angels outrank them.  

Wait...forget I said anything.  Don't feed the trolls.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Sigismund on July 10, 2012, 10:48:19 PM
I also just noticed that this is an ancient post that has been resuscitated.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: theology101 on July 10, 2012, 10:51:41 PM
Quote from: lefebvre_fan
Quote from: theology101
Quote from: fkpagnanelli

(5) The Blessed Mother doesn't come to give "secrets", but instead comes to publicly urge the Faithful to repentance;


This is really what I would have the most problem with. I distrust any Christian message that is "secret". The Gospel is meant for all the world, not a select few, and so I wonder about that. Smacks of Gnosticism almost, as though there is some secret knowledge that only a few in the Church are privileged with.


It's not like such a thing would be unheard of, though. Our Lady of La Salette confided a secret to each of the visionaries, Maximin and Mélanie, who sent them to Pius IX and which have never been published in their original versions (Mélanie later published her secret, although the extent to which it adheres to the original version or is a product of her own creation remains unclear).


I've never even heard of OL of La Salette. Can't be blamed, it took me a long time to understand Marian theology, and I still don't really.
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Raoul76 on July 10, 2012, 10:52:50 PM
Capt. McQuigg said:
Quote
Raoul76 is certainly capable of speaking for himself but in his byline (or is it signature line) he makes it clear that his past views on Fatima are to be ignored.


I'm glad it worked... Hopefully that means less time in purgatory :)
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Hobbledehoy on July 11, 2012, 12:44:48 AM
Quote from: theology101
I've never even heard of OL of La Salette. Can't be blamed, it took me a long time to understand Marian theology, and I still don't really.


Here is some information and approved prayers. The prayers are to be found in the 1950 typical edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, nos. 435, 436: this tome is also known as The Raccolta (New York: Benziger Brothers, Inc., 1957) that has been reprinted by Loreto Publications (these prayers are found on page 332 of that edition). If you don't have The Raccolta, you may consider acquiring one.


(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/TheApparitionofLaSalette.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/TheApparitionofLaSalette1.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/TheApparitionofLaSalette2.jpg)
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Hobbledehoy on July 11, 2012, 12:47:06 AM
Here are some beautiful images of Our Lady of La Salette.


(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/LaSalette.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/LaSalette1.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Miscellany/LaSalette2.jpg)
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: SaintBasil on July 11, 2012, 08:20:24 AM
I believe in the appartition.

Most telling for me is the fact that t3 Illiterate, Peasant children foretold of a movement that had yet to occur.  
They specifically foretold of the Communist Revolution 6 months before it had yet to occur, and it did.  These children were under 10, children generally dont speak in such way.


Additionally, I believe that Sister had an imposter..photos are pretty telling, nor is there any way she wouldve gone  and accepted the apostate Vatican 2 changes.

These are the Photos of suposed Sister Lucy
http://www.fatimamovement.com/022_TheImposterSisterLucy.htm
Title: Fatima Is A False Apparition
Post by: Sigismund on July 11, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
And of course, Hobble has the perfect literature at hand!   :applause: