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Author Topic: Fatima and sedevacantism  (Read 10590 times)

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Fatima and sedevacantism
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2009, 02:47:11 AM »
Gladius, what are your sources?  Is this Aquinas who says only God is super-natural?  I'm not being facetious, what you said fascinates me.

I had always defined the super-natural as being whatever is above the "natural" order of man, such as the angels.

The devil being a fallen angel, I had classed him as a supernatural being.  I didn't mean by this that he had as much power as God, of course!  In fact what many don't realize is that the devil, despite his rebellion, cannot make a move without God.  His rebellion was entirely futile and he simply boxed himself in a corner, allowing himself to be used by God in the way that a hunter may use a caged ferret to harass his prey.  As he says in a rock song "Despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage."  

Meaning, God allows him to tempt us, but he is still God's creature.  Every knee UNDER THE EARTH bows to the name of Jesus...  Even the rebels have to bow!  How can you rebel against the One who made you?  The very concept is absurd.

So yes, I appreciate that you're trying to set God high above His creation, because He is.  But I have never heard the supernatural defined that way before -- that only God is supernatural.   I defined it from our limited perspective.

Again, give me your source, I have some reading to do...

Offline CM

Fatima and sedevacantism
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 03:07:48 AM »
God allows him to do so nasty stuff though, and why?  Because God's justice is perfect, and we deserve it.  Especially when we ignore the truth that stares us right in the face.  Benedict XV was an antipope and BoD is heresy.

You may think I am a broken record, but this is a very important thing for people to assent to.


Offline gladius_veritatis

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Fatima and sedevacantism
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2009, 03:42:37 AM »
I just told you two Doctors of the Church (and many more besides) do NOT assent to your 'important truth', CM.  To become a Doctor, the writings of the man under consideration are perused with a comb of the finest teeth.  BoD and universal salvation are NOT the same thing, although an INCORRECT understanding of the one often leads to the other, truly heretical concept.

R76, although the angelic nature is ABOVE our own, it is still created - as you clearly understand.  ALL creation may be classed as the NATURAL - God, being of an altogether different order (think TIME versus ETERNITY, which is NOT merely time without end), is above all.  Faith, hope and charity are what we call supernatural virtues.  They pertain to an order of activity that surpasses our own natural capacities, and the natural capacity of all created beings, including angels.  God, in his goodness, elevates us to this level of activity - which is proper only to him.

CM, as for God's reasons for allowing the devil to act as he does, there is much more to it than mere justice and our own supposed deserts.  Tell me, what is the worth of a Church that elevates a man to the status of Doctor if he teaches heresy (for which he was never censured)?

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Fatima and sedevacantism
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 03:47:01 AM »
Quote from: Raoul76
I defined it from our limited perspective.


"My thoughts are not your thoughts, and My ways are not your ways."

I will get back to you on a particular source, but it is a thread that runs through all sacred theology.  Have you ever read Fr. Fahey?

Fatima and sedevacantism
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2009, 10:07:07 AM »
All created things belong to the "natural order" because, as it has been rightly stated, only God is SUPERnatural, that is, "above (created) nature".

Angels may have more and better natural abilities than we do, but even as animals and men, or even plants and men, being as far apart in gifts and abilities as they are, belong to the scope of (created) nature, so, too do the angels belong to that same scope.

Yes, St. Thomas is, by the way, at least one of the people who said that only God is supernatural, or "above (created) nature".

That the angels are far superior becomes useless as an argument when we realize that even inanimate objects are put in the same category with human beings, under the "natural" heading. And there's certainly a wide gulf between us and the stones. Just like there's no "sub-natural" level to define created things that are way below man, it also makes sense that the angels would be included in the same scope of all things created.

It seems St. Thomas uses the words natural and supernatural here, to define that which is created, and subject to some constraints of it's nature, and that which is uncreated, and subject to no constraints (of what could be called God's nature). [My personal understanding.]

Of course, if, by nature, you mean that which is intrinsic to something, then even God has His nature, so to speak. But speaking of "natural" as that which belongs to the created order, then of course angels would also be included in that category, in spite of their awesome abilities and gifts from God, because they, too, are created, even if their nature has such superior properties and gifts to our own.

[Sorry if my post is rambling. I've got a bad cold, and it doesn't do the brain any favors.]