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Author Topic: Father Cekada Dying  (Read 12852 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2020, 01:44:53 PM »
Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there. 
Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2020, 02:05:02 PM »
Can we read how it is explained by a canonized Doctor of the Church too?
Is it not plain to see that the great St. Alphonsus' explanation, my favorite patron saint btw, does not agree with Trent's teaching? You can site him all day long and we can site Trent all day long and the two will disagree all day long. Only one teaching is the correct teaching.

FWIW, St. Alphonsus was a moral theologian, not a dogmatic theologian - who also was quoted as saying that no one gets to heaven who does not know Our Blessed Mother, which I agree with. Do you agree with him on this?


Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #112 on: September 14, 2020, 04:03:15 PM »
This is from Sean's quote from St. Alphonsus, describing BOD:



A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?
Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame. 

Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2020, 04:18:28 PM »
Sean, in order to understand what Trent is saying there, you need to read what Trent actually says there.  

"And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, [Justification] cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God".
"[Justification] cannot be effected, without the layer of regeneration, or the desire thereof" = "Justification can only be effected by the layer of regeneration, or the desire [for the layer of regeneration: baptism]."

From the same chapter of Trent: "Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace."

The "state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam" clearly refers to Original Sin. Therefore, the text clearly says that justification removes the stain of Original Sin and puts someone in a state of grace. No one who perishes in a state of grace can be damned, that is de fide. So one who is justified is saved, by definition(note that the state of justification can be temporarily lost by way of mortal sin).

If one who is justified is saved, and justification can be effected by the desire for baptism, as is taught by Trent, then one may be saved by desire for baptism. 

I don't know how St. Alphonsus justifies implicit baptism of desire, but explicit BOD is strongly defended by Trent.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #114 on: September 14, 2020, 05:47:33 PM »
Old Covenant vs New Covenant. Entirely different ballgame.
Agreed.

But how about answering the question?