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Author Topic: Father Cekada Dying  (Read 5458 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2020, 08:18:19 AM »
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    I don't want to further derail this thread, but Incred, do you think they use this methodology in their BOD/BOB/EENS argumentation? Or anywhere else?

    They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong". 
    .
    I don't know if they are Jєωs or not (one certainly cannot make such a claim based on name alone), but I do think some things they get right (BOD/EENS), as their research is mostly backed up by Church quotes.  But other things they get totally wrong (usually when talking about the future).  One thing's for certain - they are very divisive and hateful, which is not a fruit of the Holy Ghost.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #91 on: September 14, 2020, 08:42:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2020, 08:18:19 AM
    They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong".  

    I’ve used that argument against them for years (actually, JPII died in 2005, so 15 years ago). They never admit when they are wrong which is a huge sign of pride.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #92 on: September 14, 2020, 08:50:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 14, 2020, 08:42:00 AM
    I’ve used that argument against them for years (actually, JPII died in 2005, so 15 years ago). They never admit when they are wrong which is a huge sign of pride.

    I could see the case that JP2 was a precursor to Antichrist, since a lot of these patterns repeat.  At one point, the Dimonds showed the parallels between the "High Priests" during the time of the Maccabees and the V2 papal claimants, and the parallels were striking.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #93 on: September 14, 2020, 09:08:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2020, 08:18:19 AM
    They did a whole dvd on how JPII was the anti-christ.  Now that he's been dead over 10 years, they've yet to say, "well, we got that wrong".  
    .
    I don't know if they are Jєωs or not (one certainly cannot make such a claim based on name alone), but I do think some things they get right (BOD/EENS), as their research is mostly backed up by Church quotes.  But other things they get totally wrong (usually when talking about the future).  One thing's for certain - they are very divisive and hateful, which is not a fruit of the Holy Ghost.
    His point was that Incredulous was dismissing the entire article because he assumes the Dimonds are Jєωs and getting their opinions from "rabbinical think-tanks". But of course, when the Dimonds agree with him, like with BOD etc., he'd never say those articles are from rabbinical think-tanks. The Dimond BOD articles are all pure unadultered Catholicism, but the rest are all Jєωιѕн nonsense. I guess the Jєωs really love EENS? 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #94 on: September 14, 2020, 09:25:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 09:08:48 AM
    His point was that Incredulous was dismissing the entire article because he assumes the Dimonds are Jєωs and getting their opinions from "rabbinical think-tanks". But of course, when the Dimonds agree with him, like with BOD etc., he'd never say those articles are from rabbinical think-tanks. The Dimond BOD articles are all pure unadultered Catholicism, but the rest are all Jєωιѕн nonsense. I guess the Jєωs really love EENS?
    Honestly if I were a Sede I'd probably think they were a plant to made my position look bad.

    But as it is, I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on muh plain meaning of Florence and decided to anathematize everyone over it.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #95 on: September 14, 2020, 11:06:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 14, 2020, 09:25:07 AM
    I tend to think they're just quasi laypeople who jumped on the plain meaning of Florence and all the dogmas on EENS and decided to anathematize everyone over it.
    There that's more precise. The writer just admitted himself the what the Dimond's believe are just the dogmas on EENS as they are written.

    He on the other hand must have someone to interpret them according to his desires.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #96 on: September 14, 2020, 11:18:35 AM »
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    • Well, the important distinction here is between EENS and between BoD.  Where the Dimonds cross the line is in declaring any belief in BoD, even if it's the version held by St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine to be heretical.  I don't believe in BoD and I disagree with these saints, but to hold that the Church declared Doctors of the Church three men who taught heresy is too much of a stretch.  In fact, it's clear that the Church has long tolerated a belief in a Baptism of Desire.  But, contrary to what the BoD theorists hold, it's equally clear that the Church has never defined anything about BoD, nor can the Church positively defined a BoD, since it's obviously rooted in nothing more than sheer speculation.  There's no evidence whatsoever that BoD is part of the Deposit of Revelation.

    With that said, however, a belief in a BoD for those catechumens or catechumen-like souls who actually have accepted the Catholic faith and intend to become Catholic is not fatal to EENS.  What's fatal to EENS is when BoD gets extended to those who have nothing even resembling the Catholic faith, to anyone of sincerity and "good will".  St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine taught no such thing, but the BoD proponents constantly imply that they did.

    In any case, when the Dimonds denounce as heretics those who hold even a very limited notion of BoD, they cross the line into schism, because they consider to be outside the Church those whom the Church never has.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #97 on: September 14, 2020, 11:30:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 14, 2020, 11:18:35 AM
    Well, the important distinction here is between EENS and between BoD.  Where the Dimonds cross the line is in declaring any belief in BoD, even if it's the version held by St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine to be heretical.  I don't believe in BoD and I disagree with these saints, but to hold that the Church declared Doctors of the Church three men who taught heresy is too much of a stretch.  In fact, it's clear that the Church has long tolerated a belief in a Baptism of Desire.  But, contrary to what the BoD theorists hold, it's equally clear that the Church has never defined anything about BoD, nor can the Church positively defined a BoD, since it's obviously rooted in nothing more than sheer speculation.  There's no evidence whatsoever that BoD is part of the Deposit of Revelation.

    With that said, however, a belief in a BoD for those catechumens or catechumen-like souls who actually have accepted the Catholic faith and intend to become Catholic is not fatal to EENS.  What's fatal to EENS is when BoD gets extended to those who have nothing even resembling the Catholic faith, to anyone of sincerity and "good will".  St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine taught no such thing, but the BoD proponents constantly imply that they did.

    In any case, when the Dimonds denounce as heretics those who hold even a very limited notion of BoD, they cross the line into schism, because they consider to be outside the Church those whom the Church never has.

    Baptism of desire is de fide (St. Alphonsus):

    "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #98 on: September 14, 2020, 11:44:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2020, 11:30:06 AM
    Baptism of desire is de fide (St. Alphonsus):

    "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.
    Another example of  a writer that can't accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, and therefore must seek someone to interpret them according to his desires. That is the difference, the strict EENSers believe the dogmas as they are written, the others refuse to accept them as they are written and seek teachers according to their own desires, quoting say St. Thomas Aquinas when he agrees, and throwing him under the bus when he does not. They are like Protestants, each one has his own individual belief, you never know who they believe can be saved where the rubber meets the road. A waste of time to debate with them on the matter because they themselves do not know what they believe, the only thing they have in common is that they do not believe in the dogmas on EENS as they are written.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #99 on: September 14, 2020, 12:17:51 PM »
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    • Sean, the 'de fide' from St Alphonsus defense doesn't work.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, 1910, “Limbo,” p. 258: “…St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide [on unbaptized infants suffering the fires of hell]...”
     
    St. Cyprian, 254 A.D.: “We… judging and holding it as certain that no one beyond the pale [that is, outside the Church] is able to be baptized…”


    Even the go to defender amongst the SSPX stated:

    Fr. Jean-Marc Rulleau, Baptism of Desire, p. 43: “The existence of baptism of desire is, then, a truth which, although it has not been defined as a dogma by the Church, is at least proximate to the faith.”

    That is not 'de fide'. 
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #100 on: September 14, 2020, 12:25:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on September 14, 2020, 12:17:51 PM
    Sean, the 'de fide' from St Alphonsus defense doesn't work.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, 1910, “Limbo,” p. 258: “…St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide [on unbaptized infants suffering the fires of hell]...”
     
    St. Cyprian, 254 A.D.: “We… judging and holding it as certain that no one beyond the pale [that is, outside the Church] is able to be baptized…”


    Even the go to defender amongst the SSPX stated:

    Fr. Jean-Marc Rulleau, Baptism of Desire, p. 43: “The existence of baptism of desire is, then, a truth which, although it has not been defined as a dogma by the Church, is at least proximate to the faith.”

    That is not 'de fide'.
     Saint Alphonsus wrote that after Trent defined it. I know Ladislaus takes issue with it arguing that Trent was misinterpreted, but it is much safer to be on the side of Saint Alphonsus. There is not a single theologian post Trent, that I’m aware of, who didn’t believe in BOD/BOB. Remember that they all believed in EENS.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #101 on: September 14, 2020, 12:32:19 PM »
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    • Quo Vadis, Trent did not define BOD. 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #102 on: September 14, 2020, 12:42:57 PM »
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    • This is from Sean's quote from St. Alphonsus, describing BOD:


    Quote
    But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen].


    A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

    Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #103 on: September 14, 2020, 01:10:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on September 14, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
    Quo Vadis, Trent did not define BOD.
    According to Saint Alphonsus, it did.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #104 on: September 14, 2020, 01:14:42 PM »
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    • Saint Alphonsus: “ Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” ”
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