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Author Topic: Father Cekada Dying  (Read 5455 times)

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Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Father Cekada Dying
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2020, 11:20:24 PM »
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    • If I speak with the tongues of men, and of Angels,
    and have not charity, I am become a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
    And if I should have prophecy, and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge: and I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing.
    Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up,
    Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil.
    Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth: Beareth all things, believeth  all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
    Charity never faileth; whether prophesies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge be destroyed.
    For we know in part and we prophesy  in part. But if that which is perfect shall come,
    When I was a child that which which is part shall be done away with.
    When I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.
    WE SEE NOW THROUGH A GLASS IN AN OBSCURE MANNER : . nOW i KNOW IN PART  : but then face to face. Now I know in part : but then I shall know even as
    I am known.
    And now there remain, faith, hope, charity : but the greatest of these is charity.    

    May Father's soul rest in peace, and eternal light shine upon him.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #121 on: September 15, 2020, 12:01:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 14, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
    I already did. They died(and weren't even saved as such, they went to Hell first of all) under the Old Covenant. Entirely different ruleset to what we have now. There was no baptism back then, so how could BOD have saved them? And again, they weren't even saved - they were sent to Hell before Christ freed them. Unless you're implying that implicit BOD can bring souls that are already in Hell to Heaven, the scenarios aren't even remotely comparable. Obviously the OT Fathers weren't condemned to eternal damnation for being "outside "of a Church that didn't yet exist or not professing faith in dogma that had not yet been revealed. None of that has anything to do with BOD which, as the first word of the acronym suggests, is a New Covenant concept.

    Sorry, yet once again you did not answer the simple question, despite going on and on and on on your tangent. And most of the post is consumed with a concept I didn't even use, "saved" in the sense of in heaven. And even then, you made yourself look rather odd (to put it kindly) in light of your own post above, where you compared "justification" and "salvation" - here:


    Quote
    The "state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam" clearly refers to Original Sin. Therefore, the text clearly says that justification removes the stain of Original Sin and puts someone in a state of grace. No one who perishes in a state of grace can be damned, that is de fide. So one who is justified is saved, by definition(note that the state of justification can be temporarily lost by way of mortal sin).

    If one who is justified is saved, and justification can be effected by the desire for baptism, as is taught by Trent, then one may be saved by desire for baptism. 

    Now, my question, yet again, was this (with the operative words you ignored or lost focus of highlighted): how were the OT saints justified?

    It might do you well to review your own words above, too, where you say "one who is justified is saved." 

    So, unless you want to maintain the OT saints didn't need to be "justified" - or, as you correctly state, be "put . . . in a state of grace" - before they died so that they could end up "saved" in heaven -

    How were the OT saints justified?

     
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #122 on: September 15, 2020, 04:34:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 14, 2020, 10:28:11 PM
    Sorry, fellas, that's my fault. Someone cited the Dimonds as some sort of example of sedevacantists. I just wanted to set the record straight with those guys, but that wasn't really a relevant contribution in a thread devoted to paying last respects to Fr. Cekada.
    True.  I suggest no one post or answer anything not having to do with Fr. Cekada.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #123 on: September 15, 2020, 07:12:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 12:01:47 AM
    How were the OT saints justified?
    By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #124 on: September 15, 2020, 07:53:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 12:01:47 AM
    Sorry, yet once again you did not answer the simple question, despite going on and on and on on your tangent. And most of the post is consumed with a concept I didn't even use, "saved" in the sense of in heaven. And even then, you made yourself look rather odd (to put it kindly) in light of your own post above, where you compared "justification" and "salvation" - here:


    Now, my question, yet again, was this (with the operative words you ignored or lost focus of highlighted): how were the OT saints justified?

    It might do you well to review your own words above, too, where you say "one who is justified is saved."

    So, unless you want to maintain the OT saints didn't need to be "justified" - or, as you correctly state, be "put . . . in a state of grace" - before they died so that they could end up "saved" in heaven -

    How were the OT saints justified?
    You asked: "Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"

    I explained why BOD was not applicable. You complained. I explained it again in excruciating detail. You complained. And now you're getting all snarky and pretending I ignored your post because you can't even bloody remember what you said.

    I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified(which they weren't in the proper sense, at least not until centuries/millennia after death); they're completely irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

    Next time you want to get all snarky and play the wise guy, maybe try remembering your own words before you paint yourself like even more of an idiot.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #125 on: September 15, 2020, 08:00:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 07:53:24 AM
    You asked: "Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"

    I explained why BOD was not applicable. You complained. I explained it again in excruciating detail. You complained. And now you're getting all snarky and pretending I ignored your post because you can't even bloody remember what you said.

    I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified(which they weren't in the proper sense - they weren't "saved" until centuries/millennia after death); they're completely bloody irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

    Next time you want to get all snarky and play the wise guy, maybe try remembering your own words before you paint yourself like even more of an idiot.

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    I didn't care to answer how the OT Fathers were justified

    Right. You didn't answer the question. Glad that's done. 


    Quote
    they're completely bloody irrelevant to the question of BOD, as I've explained multiple times now.

    Not when the question turns on St. Alphonsus's definition, which I quoted and referred to in posing the question. 

    Hopefully we're done, and I'll discuss the issue with others who want to address the question. 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #126 on: September 15, 2020, 08:02:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:00:25 AM
    Right. You didn't answer the question. Glad that's done.


    Not when the question turns on St. Alphonsus's definition, which I quoted and referred to in posing the question.

    Hopefully we're done, and I'll discuss the issue with others who want to address the question.

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    "Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?"
    Three times I've answered this question.

    Not my fault you can neither read nor remember your own words.

    Of course the problem is not that I "didn't answer the question", which I have three times now. The problem is that I haven't given you the answer you want: that Baptism of Desire somehow saved souls before either salvation or baptism was a thing.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #127 on: September 15, 2020, 08:03:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 07:12:13 AM
    By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.

    Thank you, Stubborn.

    I'll quote your response and continue with this issue in the other thread where more appropriate.

    Or it might be better to start a new topic. 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Father Cekada Dying
    « Reply #128 on: September 15, 2020, 08:08:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 08:02:20 AM
    Three times I've answered this question.

    Not my fault you can neither read nor remember your own words.

    Of course the problem is not that I "didn't answer the question", which I have three times now. The problem is that I haven't given you the answer you want: that Baptism of Desire somehow saved souls before either salvation or baptism were a thing.
    You keeping digging a bigger hole in an attempt to justify yourself. 

    There was a time when salvation wasn't a thing? Please. 

    And to be saved, man always had to be justified by the grace of God.

    Let's take this elsewhere. I'll start a new thread. 

    I'll end this here with: Father Cekada, pray for us. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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