The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned... (since we don't know whether his soul was enlightened or not by divine grace before he died).

The debates of the feeneyites are pointless.

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Quote from: Last Tradhican

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned...

Read again what the Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St Pius X said. It could not be any clearer.

When asked if a Buddhist, Confucian, Hindu, Moslem, Mohammed himself was saved,  "must answer that those who die as infidels are damned".

You miss the point of Pope St. Pius X ... those who die as infidels ... no one knows except God, it is also wrong to affirm that infidels are saved.

The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned... (since we don't know whether his soul was enlightened or not by divine grace before he died).

Amakusa said it perfectly above, in other words  LEAVE IT UP TO GOD.
You will be much better off yourself when you face God.  

Yes, I believe that!   My point is we who are merely humans, Gods creation are not allowed to say exactly who died as an infidel FOR CERTAIN.  See my point is, it is up to God to say who is an infidel at that last moment of their death, after death your will is fixed forever.  

I prefer to say, May God have mercy on their soul.  Leave it at that!

The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned... (since we don't know whether his soul was enlightened or not by divine grace before he died).

The debates of the feeneyites are pointless.

Myrna and Amakusa, you are both missing the point. The object of the debate is not eternal fate of any specific individual. You are right, we can't know the state of any soul at the moment of death and we can judge no one. The only strict EENS-ers that I am aware of who judge individual souls to be damned are the Dimonds.

The object of the debate are objective requirements for salvation. You say we can't know who died as infidel - you are correct, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that Novus Ordites and many Traditionalists believe that you can die as an infidel and still be saved through "implicit Baptism of Desire" or through believing in Rewarder God, which runs contrary to EENS and all teachings on BoD from Saints and Doctors of the Church.  

Quote from: Arvinger

Myrna and Amakusa, you are both missing the point.

I've been trying to make this same distinction with Myrna for years now, but it just doesn't seem to sink in.  Anyone who affirms that someone must be a Catholic in order to be saved is "judging souls".

The difference between Feeneyism and myself would be to put the emphasis on the teaching of the Church that God alone has the last word of who is Catholic.  I do not deny EENS but have confidence in the Mercy of God; was taught way before you were born, that God knows when it is the best time to give His saving grace.

Feeneyism puts the emphasis on the teaching of EENS and depends on what he perceives the person is at the moment of their death, PERIOD.    I call that Pride!

 

The point is that Novus Ordites and many Traditionalists believe that you can die as an infidel and still be saved through "implicit Baptism of Desire" or through believing in Rewarder God, which runs contrary to EENS and all teachings on BoD from Saints and Doctors of the Church.  

This Traditionalist doesn't believer in any one-sided "Rewarder" God (only heard that phrase on this forum, by the way, never in any authentic Catholic theology).  The entire point of Christ the Just Judge is that Mercy is predicated upon Justice, and Justice is the manifestation of Truth.  Homage to a different God or gods is not Truth, because there is exactly One God, not a multiplicity of them.  This is absolutely and objectively true.  Jesus Christ would deny His own nature, should he trade worship of "replacement" gods for Himself.  And He cannot deny His nature; that is an impossibility.

I think I am becoming a Dogmatic Traditionalist.  
 

Sounds good to me!   :cheers:

The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned... (since we don't know whether his soul was enlightened or not by divine grace before he died).

The debates of the feeneyites are pointless.

Absolutely false.

In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:  "It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned."

We must answer that they are damned.  So your allegation is patently false.  Stop lying about this.  We cannot even speculate that they COULD HAVE been saved.  So, in other words, when people like Bishop Fellay, and in fact 99% of all "Traditional" Catholics, claim that some infidel (Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) COULD be saved, they're speaking contrary to the mind of the Church.  So it sounds to me like it's only the "Feeneyites" who are consistent with the mind of Holy Mother Church on this subject.  Oh, I would LOVE for you Cushingites to go back in time and claim to Pope Eugene IV and the Fathers who gave us the teaching of Cantate Domino that all infidels are damned and tell them that they can be saved.  You'd be burning at the stake, rightfully so, before you even finished the sentence.

And everyone here on CI ripping those of us who state that all infidels are damned for being "judgmental", I guess you can go ahead now and tear into St. Pius X.  In fact, you are defying this directive from the Holy Office by claiming that these COULD be saved (somehow).  Got that, LoT?  You've spent TONS of virtual ink here on CI doing exactly that, claiming that infidels COULD be saved.  You need to repent of this grave sin.

Quote from: Amakusa

The Church teaches that it is forbidden to claim that Confucius was saved; but she also teaches that is is forbidden to claim that he was damned... (since we don't know whether his soul was enlightened or not by divine grace before he died).

The debates of the feeneyites are pointless.

Absolutely false.

Quote from: Holy Office under St. Pius X

In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:  "It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned."

We must answer that they are damned.  So your allegation is patently false.  Stop lying about this.  We cannot even speculate that they COULD HAVE been saved.  So, in other words, when people like Bishop Fellay, and in fact 99% of all "Traditional" Catholics, claim that some infidel (Muslim, Buddhist, etc.) COULD be saved, they're speaking contrary to the mind of the Church.  So it sounds to me like it's only the "Feeneyites" who are consistent with the mind of Holy Mother Church on this subject.  Oh, I would LOVE for you Cushingites to go back in time and claim to Pope Eugene IV and the Fathers who gave us the teaching of Cantate Domino that all infidels are damned and tell them that they can be saved.  You'd be burning at the stake, rightfully so, before you even finished the sentence.

And everyone here on CI ripping those of us who state that all infidels are damned for being "judgmental", I guess you can go ahead now and tear into St. Pius X.  In fact, you are defying this directive from the Holy Office by claiming that these COULD be saved (somehow).  Got that, LoT?  You've spent TONS of virtual ink here on CI doing exactly that, claiming that infidels COULD be saved.  You need to repent of this grave sin.

I could agree with you if I knew for certain that the soul in question died an infidel, but the truth is only God knows that.  

Your problem Lad is you want to be the Pilot, but God is the Pilot.  You better switch seats with Him and be satisfied you are nothing but at best the co-pilot.