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Author Topic: Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church  (Read 1114 times)

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Offline SolHero

  • Supporter
Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church
« on: February 07, 2023, 07:19:50 PM »
Hi,
I watched a video on youtube from "Faith and Movement" (Link here ) which had an example that did not sit in well with me when explaining what we mean by no salvation outside the church. The video had some examples of people who would not be saved which did not seem problematic except that there was emphasis in rejecting the Catholic church while knowing it to be true. This emphasis would seem to open the door to protestants who allegedly do not know the Catholic church is the one true Church and according to the video, "can be saved by making use of the graces that God gives them." 

The author claims that "those who through no fault of their own are unaware of His command to belong to the true church, provided they served Him faithfully according to their conscience and have a sincere desire to do His will in all things and therefore implicitly wishes to become a member of His church, then this person is a member of the church "in desire."

And the example below is given:

Quote
A baptized protestant of protestant parents lives all his life a protestant having a doubt that he is in the wrong before death he makes an act of perfect contrition for the sins he has committed such a man will be saved for he dies in the state of grace.


I'm not trying to discredit the author but just trying to understand this and determine if it is correct because to me, the examples the author used have a touch of modernism. Just this Sunday the Gospel was about the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and it made me wonder if I am one of those murmuring about the ones who worked only the last hour were made equal in pay to the ones "who have borne the burden of the day and the heats" Mt 20:11-15.

Source Video: 

Re: Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2023, 10:16:07 PM »
It's not correct.  That's just more modernism and trying to slip everyone and their mother into Heaven even though they reject Truth.  Their view of salvation is contrary to Sacred Scripture, Councils, and Dogma.  I always thought it was a stupid statement about "well it's only if they know it was the truth but still reject it."  Usually someone doesn't reject something that they think is true and I can't think why this would be any different.  

The vast majority of humanity is in or going to Hell.  Most people don't like to hear that because they are inflated with the vice of human respect and put their friends or family above God and His Laws and they don't want to face the fact that they have friends and family in Hell.

Sin blinds people and God owes Salvation to no one.  If someone is not shown The True Faith then it's because of their sins and bad will or something God Knows in His Infinite Knowledge and Wisdom.  God gives everyone the necessary actual graces to be saved and those in Hell choose to reject God and His Faith. 

God will see that those who are following the Natural Law (ie The 10 Commandments) even if they've never heard of Him or His True Faith will be sent someone to Baptize and instruct them in The Faith so that they can be saved.

Inb4 post deleted or ban.


Re: Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2023, 11:42:55 PM »
In Mystici Corporis Christi, Pius XII:


Quote
from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them [i.e., those who are not members of the Church] to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.
.

Curious that the pope 1) describes them as in a state of uncertain salvation rather than certain reprobation and 2) having a "certain relationship" with the Church. 
.
I think that explicit faith (even if never externalized) in the Incarnation and Trinity is probably necessary for salvation, and I don't get the impression Pius XII is referring to infidels in the passage above. But as far as membership in the Church goes, theologians since Bellarmine have distinguished between membership in re and membership in voto. Pius XII appears to endorse that distinction here in his encyclical, or if not endorse it at least subtly encourage it.  Compare this paragraph to the paragraph earlier in the encyclical, where the pope uses the Latin reapse to describe those who are actually (in re) members. 


Quote
Actually [reapse] only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
.

The word "actually" is not being used as a corrective or a contrary, it is a philosophical designation to distinguish those who are members in re, as later he will discuss those who are members in voto.
.
Those who regard encyclicals as being capable of holding all kinds of error are likely to find nothing at all significant here, but for those who hold (correctly) that encyclicals cannot teach dangerous error, this is a passage of significance and weight that does not get discussed enough.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2023, 04:34:03 AM »
The author claims that "those who through no fault of their own are unaware of His command to belong to the true church, provided they served Him faithfully according to their conscience and have a sincere desire to do His will in all things and therefore implicitly wishes to become a member of His church, then this person is a member of the church "in desire."

And the example below is given:
Quote
Quote
A baptized protestant of protestant parents lives all his life a protestant having a doubt that he is in the wrong before death he makes an act of perfect contrition for the sins he has committed such a man will be saved for he dies in the state of grace.
"Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc., and ends by denying it - while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it. What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's Infallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying." - Fr. Wathen, from his book Who Shall Ascend?

Fr. Wathen:


 




Offline SolHero

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Re: Faith and movement - Salvation and the Catholic Church
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2023, 11:13:06 AM »
Thank you all for the encyclical and book references. That quote from Fr Wathen is spot on. 

I am the head of my family and I need to protect those under my care from definitions or "exceptions" to teachings disguised as traditional that actually chip away at the the understanding of Catholic dogma.