Author Topic: Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus -- one more time! (Read 5048 times)

Jehanne · « **on:** September 03, 2009, 11:11:22 AM »

Everyone,

It seems to me that the GREAT HERESY of the modern Church (and, perhaps, even the pre-Vatican II Church) is this:

Faith can be implicit.

The late Father Karl Rahner's "anonymous Christian" is heresy.

Faith in Jesus Christ, the One and Only Son of God, and His sacrifice on the Cross must be explicit. Through faith in Christ, we receive the forgiveness and graces of the One and Triune God, and through the Sacraments of the Church and our vow ("vowtum") to receive them, we are incorporated into Christ's Mystical Body, which is the Holy and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church, outside of which no one at all will be saved.

Thoughts?

Belloc · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2009, 11:47:11 AM »

What happens if:

1. A Prot or Orthodox has ben brainwashed his whole life to think the CC is evil, hence avoiding it like the plague
2. Someone is in the hinterlands and never hears teh Gospel msg, or if he does, from a Prot and then no more msgs
3. A guy has the internet, TV, etc at his advantage but beleives all the anti-CC stuff out there nad shuts his mind off...

Do we then say-ooops, so sad, to bad like some Calvinist predestinarian???

It is erroneous to say all will be saved or "it does not matter what one beleives",etc=universal salvation

It is also erroneous to decide what God alone knows-what is in the hearta nd mind...He saves ,we do not.....suffice to say, few are saved, many lost....instead of clinging to obsessions, I propose to pray for them, show them teh way through our example, answer their questions as Peter tells us in his letter and avoid man-made extremes of Feeney or Liberal modernists.....Dogma is Dogma, but there are always questions of how to apply it.....some dod not willingly reject the Church, but inhereited the herest.....willing heretics (Wycliff,Luther,Waldo,etc) are guilty and the edicts,etc are directed at them directly-again, we have to have context of the edicts-but not all that followed them now are guilty of willful heresy......one cannot be blamed, nor convicted of waht they do not know......with God the old axiom "Ignorance of the law is no exception to the law" does not hold water, God is both justice and mercy....

One reason I do not use the term "traditionalist" anymore, but "ortohodox", small "o" is the anger and lack of mercy amongst Trads.....as sort of Jansesit/Calvinistic feel.....Catholic need to keep balance in mind......Calvinists beleived taht God chose some, that is it no matter how much faith or good one did, when one died-"oops sorry you are not one of the pre-chosen"

Likely if a Prot/Schismatic avoided Hell, it was complete ignorance of truth and likely a loooong Purgatory time, esp as they received no Graces in life and not Masses/prayers in Purgatory.....

Likely with this reply, I will be pelted and likely not welcome anymore here, so I guess I will sign off site and figure my welcome is at an end.....

Jehanne · « **Reply #2 on:** September 03, 2009, 12:00:43 PM »

Quote from: Belloc

What happens if:

1. A Prot or Orthodox has ben brainwashed his whole life to think the CC is evil, hence avoiding it like the plague
2. Someone is in the hinterlands and never hears teh Gospel msg, or if he does, from a Prot and then no more msgs
3. A guy has the internet, TV, etc at his advantage but beleives all the anti-CC stuff out there nad shuts his mind off...

Do we then say-ooops, so sad, to bad like some Calvinist predestinarian???

It is erroneous to say all will be saved or "it does not matter what one beleives",etc=universal salvation

It is also erroneous to decide what God alone knows-what is in the hearta nd mind...He saves ,we do not.....suffice to say, few are saved, many lost....instead of clinging to obsessions, I propose to pray for them, show them teh way through our example, answer their questions as Peter tells us in his letter and avoid man-made extremes of Feeney or Liberal modernists.....Dogma is Dogma, but there are always questions of how to apply it.....some dod not willingly reject the Church, but inhereited the herest.....willing heretics (Wycliff,Luther,Waldo,etc) are guilty and the edicts,etc are directed at them directly-again, we have to have context of the edicts-but not all that followed them now are guilty of willful heresy......one cannot be blamed, nor convicted of waht they do not know......with God the old axiom "Ignorance of the law is no exception to the law" does not hold water, God is both justice and mercy....

One reason I do not use the term "traditionalist" anymore, but "ortohodox", small "o" is the anger and lack of mercy amongst Trads.....as sort of Jansesit/Calvinistic feel.....Catholic need to keep balance in mind......Calvinists beleived taht God chose some, that is it no matter how much faith or good one did, when one died-"oops sorry you are not one of the pre-chosen"

Likely if a Prot/Schismatic avoided Hell, it was complete ignorance of truth and likely a loooong Purgatory time, esp as they received no Graces in life and not Masses/prayers in Purgatory.....

Likely with this reply, I will be pelted and likely not welcome anymore here, so I guess I will sign off site and figure my welcome is at an end.....

Question for you, "Why evangelize?" Let's consider #2, someone who has never heard the Gospel. Let's consider the following 2 scenarios:

1) Good pagan lives virtuously, believes in generic Divine Providence, never hears the Gospel, dies and then goes to Heaven.

2) Good pagan lives virtuously, believes in generic Divine Providence, hears the Gospel but rejects it, dies and then goes to Hell.

By preaching in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are making some people worse off! Go figure!

Belloc · « **Reply #3 on:** September 03, 2009, 01:10:10 PM »

We always evangelize, but it is not a either/or scenario-that is Prot thinking.....

Who says a good pagan goes to Heaven? They may go to Limbo.......heaven is only for the "saved" which is the Christ believer.

We preach Gospel as we are commanded to do so, it is up to free willed man to accept or deny.....if one refuses to believe or investigate the faith, he is denying the Holy Spirit/Ghost.....

Even the Calvinists evangelize, though their view of Christ is dark,limited.......if they can, we have to and should.....

Caraffa · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2009, 01:31:18 PM »

Quote from: Belloc

What happens if:

1. A Prot or Orthodox has ben brainwashed his whole life to think the CC is evil, hence avoiding it like the plague
2. Someone is in the hinterlands and never hears teh Gospel msg, or if he does, from a Prot and then no more msgs
3. A guy has the internet, TV, etc at his advantage but beleives all the anti-CC stuff out there nad shuts his mind off...

Grace can overcome all of these things. If they did not receive (efficacious) grace, then perhaps God already fore-knew that they would not make good use of it and come to faith.

Quote

Do we then say-ooops, so sad, to bad like some Calvinist predestinarian???

It is erroneous to say all will be saved or "it does not matter what one beleives",etc=universal salvation

It is also erroneous to decide what God alone knows-what is in the hearta nd mind...He saves ,we do not.....suffice to say, few are saved, many lost....instead of clinging to obsessions, I propose to pray for them, show them teh way through our example, answer their questions as Peter tells us in his letter and avoid man-made extremes of Feeney or Liberal modernists.....Dogma is Dogma, but there are always questions of how to apply it.....some dod not willingly reject the Church, but inhereited the herest.....willing heretics (Wycliff,Luther,Waldo,etc) are guilty and the edicts,etc are directed at them directly-again, we have to have context of the edicts-but not all that followed them now are guilty of willful heresy......one cannot be blamed, nor convicted of waht they do not know......with God the old axiom "Ignorance of the law is no exception to the law" does not hold water, God is both justice and mercy....

One reason I do not use the term "traditionalist" anymore, but "ortohodox", small "o" is the anger and lack of mercy amongst Trads.....as sort of Jansesit/Calvinistic feel.....Catholic need to keep balance in mind......Calvinists beleived taht God chose some, that is it no matter how much faith or good one did, when one died-"oops sorry you are not one of the pre-chosen"

Likely if a Prot/Schismatic avoided Hell, it was complete ignorance of truth and likely a loooong Purgatory time, esp as they received no Graces in life and not Masses/prayers in Purgatory.....

But Graces are granted outside of the Church to bring them in. Some come, some don't.

Jehanne · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2009, 02:56:08 PM »

Vladimir · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:09:41 PM »

http://vanitasomnia.blogspot.com/2009/08/story-of-blessed-caius-of-corea.html

Belloc · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:14:09 PM »

Caraffa states: But Graces are granted outside of the Church to bring them in. Some come, some don't..

Exactly, well put......best to pray, do what we can to be God's messenger.....in the end, God knows the hearts and minds..I leave it to Him.....

Caraffa · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:30:58 PM »

Jehanne · « **Reply #9 on:** September 03, 2009, 04:39:44 PM »

Elizabeth · « **Reply #10 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:05:08 PM »

Belloc, I will not pelt you for wondering about the anger and la ck of mercy of trads. We all need to try harder to co-operate with God's Grace, well at least I do.

CM · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2009, 10:50:12 PM »

Quote

Explicit faith in Christ is needed for salvation.

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Quote

Bingo. Question is, "Why cannot our beloved Pontiff make a ex cathedra declaration stating what you just said?!" Perfect! Bravo!! How simple. (Why didn't I think of that???)

Which Pontiff? We don't have one yet.

Jehanne · « **Reply #12 on:** September 04, 2009, 07:03:42 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote
Explicit faith in Christ is needed for salvation.

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Quote
Bingo. Question is, "Why cannot our beloved Pontiff make a ex cathedra declaration stating what you just said?!" Perfect! Bravo!! How simple. (Why didn't I think of that???)

Which Pontiff? We don't have one yet.

If the Chair of Peter is vacant, how do we know when it has been filled?

Belloc · « **Reply #13 on:** September 04, 2009, 07:11:12 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Quote
Explicit faith in Christ is needed for salvation.

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Quote
Bingo. Question is, "Why cannot our beloved Pontiff make a ex cathedra declaration stating what you just said?!" Perfect! Bravo!! How simple. (Why didn't I think of that???)

Which Pontiff? We don't have one yet.

If the Chair of Peter is vacant, how do we know when it has been filled?

Personal interpretation.........though the "vacant seat" has never been proved, if you want a headaches and not know at the end which way is up, read the sede position......it will be like an acid trip in logic........

Unitl recently, though most sede's recognized Pius XII as last Pope, now apparently, we have not had one in 100 or so yrs per some........

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #14 on:** September 04, 2009, 07:54:06 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

If the Chair of Peter is vacant, how do we know when it has been filled?

God established it; God has preserved it all this time; God will make sure you know what you need to know.