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Author Topic: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE  (Read 1099 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 04:49:06 PM »
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What's under discussion is whether what he wrote "properly manifests" his intention to quit.  It clearly does, and there's no reasonable doubt.
The OP article references a specific docuмent which Benedict updated during JPIIs papacy, with new rules for how a pope could resign.  I believe those lawyers who say Benedict didn’t follow his own legal docuмent.  Benedict has been clear that he didn’t resign under duress BUT ALSO very clear that he still has the spiritual papal mandate (the part he didn’t resign).  It’s all very confusing, but I believe that’s the point.  They wanted a Francis type who can “run the papal govt” but not really be the pope (in a spiritual sense).  Exactly what Paul VI was.  
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They couldn’t do a “white smoke turned black smoke conclave” again, so this is a different way to get the same result.

Online Ladislaus

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Re: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2021, 05:30:07 PM »
The OP article references a specific docuмent which Benedict updated during JPIIs papacy, with new rules for how a pope could resign.  I believe those lawyers who say Benedict didn’t follow his own legal docuмent.  Benedict has been clear that he didn’t resign under duress BUT ALSO very clear that he still has the spiritual papal mandate (the part he didn’t resign).  It’s all very confusing, but I believe that’s the point.  They wanted a Francis type who can “run the papal govt” but not really be the pope (in a spiritual sense).  Exactly what Paul VI was.  
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They couldn’t do a “white smoke turned black smoke conclave” again, so this is a different way to get the same result.

This is nowhere near the same result.  Benedict was as much of a Modernist as Francis.  Benedict was just better at projecting an air of Traditionalism.

I fail to see this argument anywhere.  Could you cite it?  All I'm seeing is the munus ministerium argument, and it's all I've ever seen (apart from the resigned under duress theories).  There's some mention that he wrote some articles about "munus" but if that's in Canon Law, then this article didn't bother to cite it.  That sentence talking about JP2 is conflating a change in Canon Law (which doesn't refer to munus with some other articles Benedict wrote about munus ... and says nothing about WHAT Benedict wrote about munus).  Whatever that actual argument is, it's not presented in this article.  And I'm not going to watch an entire movie to see whether one Modernist is pope rather than another Modernist.  I could hardly care less which Modernist is pope.  As I mentioned earlier, it's done a lot of good for Bergoglio to be in there, having opened a lot of eyes about who they really are.


Offline Matthew

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Re: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2021, 05:59:12 PM »
This is nowhere near the same result.  Benedict was as much of a Modernist as Francis.  Benedict was just better at projecting an air of Traditionalism.

This is my main reason for not being a "Benevacantist". Conservative Catholics get all excited about Pope Benedict. Traditional Catholics do not.

For the Traditionalist -- whose rallying cry is "Vatican II must be destroyed!" -- Pope Benedict is none other than Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the radical liberal of the 1960's at Vatican II. This man was completely implicated in Vatican II. If Vatican II is evil, then Card. Ratzinger was part of that evil.

The case of Pope Benedict is a CLASSIC case of the Overton Window shifting over the decades. The 1960's radical left has become the 2000's conservative right!


Offline Yeti

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Re: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2021, 06:52:15 PM »
Pax, if Ratz resigned in such a way that the See would be vacant, then how could he have been resigning only the munus or the ministerium (I forget which, but there's really not such a clear difference between those two words as Bennyvacantists claim) while not resigning the papacy?
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In other words:
Ratzinger: I resign in such a way that the see will be vacant.
Bennyvacantists: Ratzinger resigned in such a way that he did not intend to vacate the See.
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:confused:

Re: EXPLOSIVE FILM REIGNITES ‘TWO POPES’ DEBATE
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2021, 07:42:51 PM »
I looked up the text of Ratzinger's resignation speech (unfortunately it's an English translation, but) and this seems to be the operative part:
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Maybe that's why the Bennyvacantists seldom quote that part of the speech, even though it's the most important part.
Ann Barnhardt addresses this:
In April 2005, Joseph Ratzinger took on the awesome, ontological, personal responsibility of the Papacy: the Episcopacy of Rome and the Vicarship of Christ. Nearly eight years later, however, the pontiff felt that his 85-year-old stamina no longer permitted him to continue the “functional” duties of “words and deeds.” He will step down from them, but he will remain in the spiritual “suffering and prayer.” He says all this quite plainly in his official “Declaratio” of February 11, 2013:

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my strengths, owing to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry because of its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering.
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vires meas ingravescente aetate non iam aptas esse ad munus Petrinum aeque administrandum. Bene conscius hoc munus secundum suam essentiam spiritualem non solum agendo et loquendo exsequi debere, sed non minus patiendo et orando. (Emphasis mine)

Benedict admits his physical strengths no longer allow him to adequately wield the Petrine ministry [munus Petrinum], this ministry [munus] is essentially spiritual in nature, but nevertheless, humanly speaking, must be functionally administered in words and deeds, he therefore concludes:

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well aware [reason] of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom [free will] I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from February 28, 2013, at 8 p.m., the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant…
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bene conscius ponderis huius actus plena libertate declaro me ministerio Episcopi Romae, Successoris Sancti Petri, mihi per manus Cardinalium die 19 aprilis MMV commisso renuntiare ita ut a die 28 februarii MMXIII, hora 20, sedes Romae, sedes Sancti Petri vacet… (Emphasis mine)

Did you catch the anomaly? You probably did not, if you only read the English.
In the first quote from the Declaratio which we reproduced above, Benedict uses “munus Petrinum” to describe the essential spiritual nature of the “Petrine ministry;” he is able to fulfill this “munus” through suffering and prayer but is no longer able to do so through words and deeds. In the second and concluding quote from his Declaratio, he declares that he renounces the “ministry of Bishop of Rome,” stating in Latin: “ministerio Episcopi Romae.”

Why, may we ask, did he suddenly replace “munus” with “ministerio”? Why abandon the consistency of his narration? Likewise, why abruptly change from speaking of the “Petrine” ministry or “munus Petrinum,” to “ministerio Episcopi Romae,” “Bishop of Rome” instead?

Actually, Benedict is being consistent.

He told Seewald that “he remains within the responsibility he took on…the office enters into your very being.” Accordingly, in his Declaratio, he never renounces the essentially spiritual munus Petrinum.

Likewise, he told Seewald that due to weakness of age he stepped down from the functional aspects—and so he did renounce the “ministerio” of Bishop of Rome.

https://www.barnhardt.biz/2021/03/12/dr-mazza-guest-post-its-nothing-business-its-strictly-personal/