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Author Topic: Examples of " papal errors "  (Read 1505 times)

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Offline curiouscatholic23

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Examples of " papal errors "
« on: November 20, 2011, 11:02:30 PM »
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    • According to MHFM, Pius XII was wrong in allowing NFP/rhythmn method under certain circuмstances in his address to midwives. MHFM says this was an example of an error, not a heresey.

    But this post is not about NFP. Its about this category of "papal errors." Is there such thing as papal erros that are not heresies? If so, what are some examples?
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    Offline Raoul76

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 11:10:33 PM »
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    • No, no Pope has ever taught the universal Church an error on faith and morals in an encyclical, let alone a heresy.  That is why the most SSPX can come up with is to say that the Pope of the time excommunicated Athanasius.  But excommunicating someone wrongly is not the same as teaching heresy or error to EVERYONE.  I think it is plain to see that, if you believe a Pope can do this, you have effectively reduced the papacy to nothing.  How could the man protected by the Holy Spirit and upon whom the Rock of the Church is built, who carries on the Deposit of Faith, lead you to hell?  

    The Holy Ghost only protects the Pope when he is speaking ex cathedra, some say; despite that most Popes never even say anything ex cathedra, meaning they are useless as teachers according to this line of logic.  Personally I believe this is a new transmogrified form of Old Catholicism, a democratic take on Church government that reduces the Pope to a virtual zero.  He is rendered so useless in this scheme of things, that bishops have veto power over him.

    The famous example of a Pope teaching an error unofficially was John XXII saying that the saints don't enjoy the Beatific Vision until the end of time.  But he only said this in sermons he gave, it was never taught to the universal Church nor could it have been.  Yet he was still about to be declared a heretic until he repented.
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 11:10:54 PM »
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    • Download the mp3 I just uploaded on Papal Infallibility.
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    Offline Raoul76

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 11:15:45 PM »
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    • I gather it is SSPX since you apparently never read anything that isn't vetted by SSPX, LordPhan.  Their view of infallibility is simply wrong; that was the point of my last post.  Their interpretation of Vatican I is wrong.  

    There is no error or heresy that any Pope taught in an encyclical.  I am certain that you have nothing to show me.  I know all the SSPX arguments.  They pull out some quote supposedly from a Pope saying "many Popes were heretics" -- but this was from a banned book!

    What is certain is that, whether or not certain Popes were private heretics, you can't show me a single error or heresy that one ever taught in an encyclical.  The Magisterium, the true Magisterium, is absolutely immaculate.  
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 11:26:50 PM »
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    • In college I heard from my agnostic professors that a lot of the popes in medieval times erroneoulsy condemned scientific prinicples that we now acknowledge as fact. For example, the earth is flat, Galilleo, etc.....

    Is there any truth to this?
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    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 11:32:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Raoul76

    The famous example of a Pope teaching an error unofficially was John XXII saying that the saints don't enjoy the Beatific Vision until the end of time.  But he only said this in sermons he gave, it was never taught to the universal Church nor could it have been.  Yet he was still about to be declared a heretic until he repented.


    So do you think it is possible Pius XII could have made a "unofficial error" in allowing NFP in his speech to midwives since it could be argued that Pius XII never taught this to the Universal Church? Could the Dimond Brothers be right in this interpreation of NFP?
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    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 03:50:36 AM »
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    • NFP is not intrinsically evil. And I used to believe the MHFM view on NFP, but found the error in my thinking.

    The evil is in its misuse, when a couple just being married , use NFP to prolong their sɛҳuąƖ activity with lesser "risk" of pregnancy. Why get married in the first place, if not immediately ready to procreate? Using NFP for a brief duration in a temporary state, such as husband just being fired or wife is awaiting results of a cervical cancer biopsy, WHEN 1 or 2 CHILDREN ARE ALREADY HAD BY THE COUPLE, may be allowable by the Church.

    But using NFP to abuse the marital act, directly or indirectly in the minds of the participants, is a sin.
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    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 03:52:20 AM »
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    • Had to chuckle outloud when Raoul pointed out LordPhan not reading anything other than SSPX.

    And I had to censor me calling the stuff he is reading 'propaganda', but I did want to say the word.
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    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 10:08:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    In college I heard from my agnostic professors that a lot of the popes in medieval times erroneoulsy condemned scientific prinicples that we now acknowledge as fact. For example, the earth is flat, Galilleo, etc.....

    Is there any truth to this?


    Galilleo was condemned as a heretic. He was granted the ability by the Roman Court to present an argument for heliocentrism but could not present it as a fact. The argument he presented was a three-way discussion between two people who believed the earth revolved around the sun, and one who believed the opposite. The latter person was insulted by the other two several times. The Roman court said that he had gone against his promise not to present heliocentrism as a fact and declared him a heretic. I believe he was in prison for a few years. The Bible seems to indicate that the sun and the other planets all revolve around the earth since the earth if full of creation and thus is believed to be the center of the universe. Geocentrism was the belief until people such as Galilleo tried to prove otherwise. Geocentrism is still believed by many Trads today.

    In recent times, John Paul II came out and said that the Church was wrong to condemn Galilleo. Now what does that tell you?
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    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 03:44:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    According to MHFM, Pius XII was wrong in allowing NFP/rhythmn method under certain circuмstances in his address to midwives. MHFM says this was an example of an error, not a heresey.

    But this post is not about NFP. Its about this category of "papal errors." Is there such thing as papal erros that are not heresies? If so, what are some examples?


    MHFM has the authority to declare absolutely nothing.
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    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    In college I heard from my agnostic professors that a lot of the popes in medieval times erroneoulsy condemned scientific prinicples that we now acknowledge as fact. For example, the earth is flat, Galilleo, etc.....

    Is there any truth to this?

    In recent times, John Paul II came out and said that the Church was wrong to condemn Galilleo. Now what does that tell you?


    What it tells me is that most likely the church was right to condemn Galilleo.
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    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Examples of " papal errors "
    « Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 08:19:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    In college I heard from my agnostic professors that a lot of the popes in medieval times erroneoulsy condemned scientific prinicples that we now acknowledge as fact. For example, the earth is flat, Galilleo, etc.....

    Is there any truth to this?

    In recent times, John Paul II came out and said that the Church was wrong to condemn Galilleo. Now what does that tell you?


    What it tells me is that most likely the church was right to condemn Galilleo.


    Yeah, you got it on the money.
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    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.
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