Author Topic: ex cathedra, Francis  (Read 1945 times)

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Offline Nandarani

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ex cathedra, Francis
« on: June 16, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
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  • The Pope is indeed INFALLIBLE – when he speaks on matters of faith and morals “ex cathedra – that is when he, using his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his apostolic authority, defines a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.”  A Catholic Dictionary, Donald Attwater, Ed., The Macmillan Co., 1949, p. 2

    When has Francis done  exactly this.  Has he ever done it.  Thanks.  Doesn't refer to his informal unending commentary.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:35 AM »
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  • Probably not.  Nothing he's issued meets the notes of infallibility.  But that's a different question altogether from the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.


    Offline Nandarani

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 09:58:21 AM »
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  • Probably not.  Nothing he's issued meets the notes of infallibility.  But that's a different question altogether from the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.
    Thanks, Ladislaus. 

    I have found something which is in communion with Rome and acknowledges the Primacy of Peter and his valid successors.  They are valid and in communion with Rome but considered by Rome to be 'irregular.' 

    They are in partial communion with Rome based on shared valid succession - apostolic succession, acknowledgement of the Petrine office (though at this time, not complete submission to it) and the fact that each time a bishop is consecrated documents of registration are sent to Rome and receive congratulation and acknowledgement.

    I found them recently by focusing inside Florida using resources readily available online.  Traditio appears to be not one of them but it has been the basis heretofore of my searching from Honolulu.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #3 on: June 16, 2018, 10:23:00 AM »
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  • Read the canonization decrees of JPII and JXIII. They definitely fit the bill.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #4 on: June 16, 2018, 12:17:48 PM »
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  • Read the canonization decrees of JPII and JXIII. They definitely fit the bill.

    Yes, there is that.  Of course I can't prove that either of these men is not actually in heaven.  Anyone can repent on his deathbed.  Reportedly John XXIII was imploring "Stop the Council" on his deathbed.  So it's a little bit slippery.  But Francis most certainly used the traditional formula with all the solemn language that clearly invokes papal infallibility.  If something pronounced by a pope with that language can be wrong, then nothing is infallible.

    Quote
    For the honour of the Blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the increase of the Christian life, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayer for divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of many of our brother Bishops, we declare and define Blessed
    John XXIII
    and John Paul II

    be Saints and we enroll them among the Saints, decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole Church.



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #5 on: June 16, 2018, 04:07:39 PM »
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  • The aim of the solemn language is two-fold: declaring them in heaven, and declaring them as exemplars of the Christian faith to be emblemized and venerated. It is the latter which is problematic, because if true, traditionalism is a canard, a farce. 
    .
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    Offline Nandarani

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 05:28:59 PM »
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  • https://en-denzingerbergoglio.com/who-are-we/ Vatican II priests found each other and are doing the same work now together.

    From an upbeat point of view, it seems to me things are being addressed from myriad different directions.  If no pope has spoken ex cathedra since Pope Pius XII, then it means, to my simple mind, that on some level, all since respect the office because in spite of themselves they simply do not have the spiritual chutzpah for ex cathedra.  

    It is actually laughable to consider that even if they completely disagree with the concept, they cannot actually address it.   They are not allowed to. 

    Very interesting to my uneducated mind about the original Roman Catholic Church.  It seems that the odd ball groups who had the good fortune to exist legitimately before 1958 have carried on.  More or less.  But the ones developed since standing on sedevacantism are now seeming to me to be less favored... not that I would reject certain of them for myself.  And through no fault of their own, for, if one was not already in an odd-ball group, what hope to create one in the new order?  Something like that.

    In fact the group I found is identical with the SSPV except for being in a canyon-wide arm's length relationship with Rome.

    I may and desire to post about what I have found.  But not until I have read enough to determine I can go with it and put it up for scrutiny by the experts.

    Offline Nandarani

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 10:33:15 AM »
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  • @ 7:50  Pro vobis was changed clandestinely at the end of the document imposing the new mass.  "We want it" was changed.   An unofficial ex cathedra not on doctrine or morals. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 10:36:44 AM »
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  • Most popes do not speak ex cathedra. It's hardly the litmus test of "spiritual chutzpah."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 03:10:40 PM »
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  • The aim of the solemn language is two-fold: declaring them in heaven, and declaring them as exemplars of the Christian faith to be emblemized and venerated. It is the latter which is problematic, because if true, traditionalism is a canard, a farce.
    .

    It's a little slippery, however, in terms of the degree to which infallibility per se applies to their being exemplars.  Does that mean they had to be perfect in every respect?  There are some saints who held theological errors even.  At what point would the Church have failed in the canonization?  Strictly speaking the major reason for the guarantee of infallibility is that the Church would not be praying officially and publicly for the intercession for someone who's in hell.

    Offline Nandarani

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 04:43:59 PM »
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  • Am presently to post a link.  But before I do:

    1. beef with this could be taken up with the person in back of the site (one of them). 

    I've never used the word 'beef' before... but it comes to mind and is a short way of saying:  the person back of site is extremely articulate, intelligent, compassionate, complex, and all sorts of nifty things.  That's not me saying it - if you read, you will see evidence.  If  you do write to him expect a full response to satisfy the most discerning intellect.  It seems he is constitutionally unable to give anything less.

    2. This isn't one thing that it appears to be so before assuming it is read the text. 

    3. To ask the best questions of him first read all of what is there.





    Offline cassini

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #11 on: June 18, 2018, 04:52:32 AM »
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  • Didn't Pope John Paul II define and declare that women cannot be priests? I recall reading an analysis
    of this and it was clearly ex cathedra as it had all the conditions.

    HOWEVER, this one is being ignored because some in the Church hope they will be some day. Having lived through the last 75 years I have seen the Catholic Church go from one of laws to one of a la carte Catholicism. We live in dangerous times, For example I will never accept john XXIII or JP" as saints. Does this constitute a sin on my behalf?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #12 on: June 18, 2018, 06:39:59 AM »
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  • Didn't Pope John Paul II define and declare that women cannot be priests? I recall reading an analysis
    of this and it was clearly ex cathedra as it had all the conditions.

    HOWEVER, this one is being ignored because some in the Church hope they will be some day. Having lived through the last 75 years I have seen the Catholic Church go from one of laws to one of a la carte Catholicism. We live in dangerous times, For example I will never accept john XXIII or JP" as saints. Does this constitute a sin on my behalf?
    This teaching was already part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 08:32:36 AM »
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  • Didn't Pope John Paul II define and declare that women cannot be priests? I recall reading an analysis
    of this and it was clearly ex cathedra as it had all the conditions.

    HOWEVER, this one is being ignored because some in the Church hope they will be some day. Having lived through the last 75 years I have seen the Catholic Church go from one of laws to one of a la carte Catholicism. We live in dangerous times, For example I will never accept john XXIII or JP" as saints. Does this constitute a sin on my behalf?

    Yes, he did.  But this thread was about Francis.

    But, as 2Vermont stated, this was already held/taught by the OUM.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ex cathedra, Francis
    « Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 11:11:36 AM »
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  • Yes, he did.  But this thread was about Francis.

    But, as 2Vermont stated, this was already held/taught by the OUM.
    Yes, and I am wondering why a Catholic would downthumb that fact.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

     

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