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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22477 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #180 on: December 07, 2023, 07:28:11 AM »
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  • So, according to Fr Wathen.

    Priests are ordained by the Church to save souls.  These nine priests believed that the changing policies of ABL in the Society hampered their ability to save souls in the Church.  So, by addressing them, they were doing what they were ordained to do. 
    They were wrong. And because they did not stop at addressing them, they were wrong. And by "resisting him to his face," they were wrong.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #181 on: December 07, 2023, 07:37:04 AM »
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  • They were wrong. And because they did not stop at addressing them, they were wrong. And by "resisting him to his face," they were wrong.
    In your opinion.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #182 on: December 07, 2023, 08:38:06 AM »
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  • The split between the Nine and the sspx was caused by both sides wanting things their way.  Both sides are correct and both are wrong.  Some of the reasons for the Nine leaving are petty and +ABL should've taken their concerns more seriously by way of meetings/discussions, etc.  No one was 100% right in this matter.  Come on, people.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #183 on: December 07, 2023, 08:57:27 AM »
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  • The split between the Nine and the sspx was caused by both sides wanting things their way. 

    I'm not sure it was just about having "their" way.  They had disagreements over principles.  That's understandable given the vacuum of real Church authority.  But both sides could have just agreed to disagree and dealt with one another with a certain amount of civility.  "I'm not a sedevacantist, but I'm not going to hold it against you, since the Church hasn't resolved the issue.  We can't really work together as a result, but it's not personal and I don't hold any grudges."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #184 on: December 07, 2023, 09:15:26 AM »
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  • In your opinion.
    Well, if we go by what we see, which is the SSPX is still ordaining priests the right way, still celebrating Mass the right way, still administering the sacraments, counseling, instructing, preaching and on on, same as before, during and after "the Nine," it pretty much makes the whole thing superfluous. What did they accomplish?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #185 on: December 07, 2023, 09:37:18 AM »
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  • Well, if we go by what we see, which is the SSPX is still ordaining priests the right way, still celebrating Mass the right way, still administering the sacraments, counseling, instructing, preaching and on on, same as before, during and after "the Nine," it pretty much makes the whole thing superfluous. What did they accomplish?

    "ordaining priests the right way" - Yes, they do, but they accept priests that were not ordained the right way.

    "preaching and on on, same as before" - Not really.

    "What did they accomplish?" - If nothing else, they have congregations that work without doubtful sacraments. And that is a lot, considering the situation we live in.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #186 on: December 07, 2023, 09:46:42 AM »
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  • "ordaining priests the right way" - Yes, they do, but they accept priests that were not ordained the right way.


    The SSPX has always accepted Novus Ordo priests to join the SSPX. Always and since the beginning. Sometimes they are conditionally ordained, and sometimes not. Why did any of the Nine join the SSPX in the first place (seminary), when they surely knew that this is how the SSPX did, and still does things?

    Perhaps they just needed a variety of excuses to leave the SSPX and take properties and faithful with them, after they were able to secure their own ordination.

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #187 on: December 07, 2023, 09:52:39 AM »
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  • The SSPX has always accepted Novus Ordo priests to join the SSPX. Always and since the beginning. Sometimes they are conditionally ordained, and sometimes not. Why did any of the Nine join the SSPX in the first place (seminary), when they surely knew that this is how the SSPX did, and still does things?

    Perhaps they just needed a variety of excuses to leave the SSPX and take properties and faithful with them, after they were able to secure their own ordination.
    I don't believe that things were so clear back them. Plus, this is probably the kind of thing that you only get to know when it happens to you. I mean, they probably had not even considered that Apb. Lefebvre would accept doubtful priets before they were forced to deal with one in their district.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #188 on: December 07, 2023, 10:00:12 AM »
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  • I don't believe that things were so clear back them. Plus, this is probably the kind of thing that you only get to know when it happens to you. I mean, they probably had not even considered that Apb. Lefebvre would accept doubtful priets before they were forced to deal with one in their district.

    As far a reordaining a Novus Ordo priest who wants to join the SSPX, the SSPX has always judged it the same way. Research into how the prospective priest was ordained is thoroughly done. Those of us who have attended SSPX chapels for a long time, and who know the history of the SSPX will affirm this. I can't believe that the Nine would not have known this prior to them joining the SSPX seminary. They must have known. And yet they complained about it after their ordination, and not before. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #189 on: December 07, 2023, 10:40:15 AM »
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  • As far a reordaining a Novus Ordo priest who wants to join the SSPX, the SSPX has always judged it the same way. Research into how the prospective priest was ordained is thoroughly done. Those of us who have attended SSPX chapels for a long time, and who know the history of the SSPX will affirm this. I can't believe that the Nine would not have known this prior to them joining the SSPX seminary. They must have known. And yet they complained about it after their ordination, and not before.
    Most of the “nine” didn’t join in the 80s. Remember the split was in ‘83. Bishop Clarence Kelly, for example, joined the SSPX in 1971- Fr. Cekada in 1975 after being a Cistercian. Bishop Dolan had a similar beginning with the SSPX as well. Many held positions of authority in the US district also.

    I don’t think that after only a few years of existence (of the SSPX) or less that these priests would have been able to know all the positions and situations of the SSPX and plan to join them just “to get ordained”. It would be very rash and imprudent to publicly accuse them of this. When people joined the SSPX in the early ‘70s it was mostly because they saw it as the only organization where they could have the integral Catholic Faith. To state anything different is disingenuous. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #190 on: December 07, 2023, 10:58:36 AM »
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  • Most of the “nine” didn’t join in the 80s. Remember the split was in ‘83. Bishop Clarence Kelly, for example, joined the SSPX in 1971- Fr. Cekada in 1975 after being a Cistercian. Bishop Dolan had a similar beginning with the SSPX as well. Many held positions of authority in the US district also.

    I don’t think that after only a few years of existence (of the SSPX) or less that these priests would have been able to know all the positions and situations of the SSPX and plan to join them just “to get ordained”. It would be very rash and imprudent to publicly accuse them of this. When people joined the SSPX in the early ‘70s it was mostly because they saw it as the only organization where they could have the integral Catholic Faith. To state anything different is disingenuous.

    Exactly.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #191 on: December 07, 2023, 11:25:25 AM »
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  • "ordaining priests the right way" - Yes, they do, but they accept priests that were not ordained the right way.

    "preaching and on on, same as before" - Not really.

    "What did they accomplish?" - If nothing else, they have congregations that work without doubtful sacraments. And that is a lot, considering the situation we live in.

    Yes, yes, we all know the problems the SSPX has. I was merely pointing out that the reason the nine were expelled turned out to be for nothing at all. The whole scandalous mess accomplished division, that's "the Nine's" only claim to fame.

    And yes really, nothing. They're the same regarding ordinations / accepting some NO ordinations pre to post the nine. Same with preaching. Some priests are better preachers than others, same as always and same no matter the group. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #192 on: December 07, 2023, 12:24:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    I was merely pointing out that the reason the nine were expelled turned out to be for nothing at all.
    The expelling of the Nine didn't change the sspx (or at least, not measurably.  It might have intangibly helped +ABL to wake up the new-rome.  Hard to say.).  But the Nine certainly changed/helped Tradition.  American Tradition would be much, much smaller had the Nine not left.


    Have the Nine ever taken in new-rite bishops/priests without conditional sacraments?  To my knowledge, they have not.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #193 on: December 07, 2023, 01:05:02 PM »
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  • Most of the “nine” didn’t join in the 80s. Remember the split was in ‘83. Bishop Clarence Kelly, for example, joined the SSPX in 1971- Fr. Cekada in 1975 after being a Cistercian. Bishop Dolan had a similar beginning with the SSPX as well. Many held positions of authority in the US district also.

    I don’t think that after only a few years of existence (of the SSPX) or less that these priests would have been able to know all the positions and situations of the SSPX and plan to join them just “to get ordained”. It would be very rash and imprudent to publicly accuse them of this. When people joined the SSPX in the early ‘70s it was mostly because they saw it as the only organization where they could have the integral Catholic Faith. To state anything different is disingenuous.

    That's correct.  The Nine point out in their letter that the previous General Chapter had basically endorsed some of their positions.  Things changed in the early 1980s after Wojtyla was elected, because +Lefebvre was more hopeful that Wojtyla might turn the course back toward Tradition.  There were two priests, I believe, who were accused of "stealing" the priesthood, but they too were already several years into seminary before all these changes took place.  I don't know of anyone who JOINED SSPX just to leave.  So those two entered the Seminary under one set of rules, and then were supposed to leave after having completed 4-5 years there?  For them, the terms of their ordination were changed toward the very end, which would be very unjust to deny them ordination after they had been there 5 years and then YOU suddenly changed your mind about your various positions.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Scandals of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #194 on: December 07, 2023, 01:09:00 PM »
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  • I don't believe that things were so clear back them. Plus, this is probably the kind of thing that you only get to know when it happens to you. I mean, they probably had not even considered that Apb. Lefebvre would accept doubtful priets before they were forced to deal with one in their district.

    As the letter from The Nine pointed out, the practice of SSPX under +Lefebvre HAD been to conditionally ordain priests coming over from the NO.  Even in the case of the infamous Mr. Stark, +Lefebvre had initially requested that he be conditionally ordained, but Stark refused, which is where +Lefebvre relented.  There's a lot of UNWRITTEN stuff in SSPX, where they don't have a lot of explicit rules one way or the other, but where the rules were inferred from their general practices, information conversations, etc.