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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22478 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #135 on: December 05, 2023, 07:47:44 PM »
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  • I just want you to know, MOS, that all those down votes did not come from me. I try to avoid using the red arrow if people are trying to have a reasonable discussion. It can create animosity which doesn't help... well, it's a little entertainment, and good for our humility too I guess :-)

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #136 on: December 05, 2023, 07:50:28 PM »
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  • Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.

    prin·ci·ple
    noun
    • 1.
      a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning

    Francis is a heretic.  Heretics are barred from the papacy.  You may disagree that Francis isn't a heretic, and that could be an opinion, but to say it doesn't follow principles?  Yawn...
    You defined principle. You needed to define opinion. If we all stuck to certain Catholic principles we would not be in this mess.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #137 on: December 05, 2023, 08:28:52 PM »
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  • Regardless of Fr. Cekada's attitude, it seems folks are upset that according to its foundations the SSPX is essentially a pious union and not an actual religious order?
    Yes, that's correct. It was established as a pious union.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #138 on: December 05, 2023, 09:24:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.
    A theological opinion is PRECISELY based on catholic principles.  :facepalm:  Doesn't mean the opinion is always correct, but it does have a foundation in catholic principles.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #139 on: December 05, 2023, 09:52:55 PM »
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  • If we all stuck to certain Catholic principles we would not be in this mess.

    Au contraire mon frère.  We are in this mess precisely because the man you call pope is actively engaged in trying to destroy any and all Catholic principles over in 'the Conciliar Church'.  I'd much rather attend the local Nervous Ordo but that is impossible for numerous reasons.

    Are you attending your local Nervous Ordo?  Why or why not? 


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #140 on: December 05, 2023, 11:08:20 PM »
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  • Au contraire mon frère.  We are in this mess precisely because the man you call pope is actively engaged in trying to destroy any and all Catholic principles over in 'the Conciliar Church'.  I'd much rather attend the local Nervous Ordo but that is impossible for numerous reasons.

    Are you attending your local Nervous Ordo?  Why or why not?
    Yes, you are referring to the larger mess! No I don't attend the NOM, I'm a Traditional Catholic. I refer you to chapters 3 and 4 of Open Letter to Confused Catholics: http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-3.htm
    You would rather attend the NOM???

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #141 on: December 06, 2023, 05:05:34 AM »
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  • Au contraire mon frère.  We are in this mess precisely because the man you call pope is actively engaged in trying to destroy any and all Catholic principles over in 'the Conciliar Church'. 
    While it is true that the conciliar popes are engaged in trying to destroy any and all Catholic principles, they could not come close to actually achieving the current level of success unless helped by *all* those who help(ed) them.

    The point is, you should not place 100% of the blame on the conciliar popes because they were not in this alone, they in fact had/have plenty of help to do the job. But yes, the popes are guilty, but I think a point often ignored or forgotten and rarely, if ever, ever mentioned, is that *all* those who chose to follow the conciliar popes add(ed) to the destruction are also guilty - the degree of culpability is the only difference.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #142 on: December 06, 2023, 05:49:41 AM »
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  • After the split of the nine Archbishop Lefebvre ordered that the 1962 rubrics would be used in the seminaries. He never demanded this in the priories and chapels. He himself in his private Masses said in Our Lady's chapel in Econe used the older missal and rubrics. In fact he never seriously learned the 1962 rubrics.
    Archbishop Lefebvre's conferences to the seminarians at Ridgefield 1982/83:
    https://ia802702.us.archive.org/18/items/LefebvreRidgefield8283A/Lefebvre%20Ridgefield%2082%2083%20a_text.pdf

    Excerpt:
    "Well, this liturgy (of John XXIII) is the liturgy of Econe. It is the liturgy
    I myself have been using now for 20 years. It is a liturgy we use,
    more or less, everywhere in the Fraternity,"
    "But this fact, this refusal of Fr. Zapp's was an unveiling of
    another thing more important..."


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #143 on: December 06, 2023, 05:58:27 AM »
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  • But if so, then certainly he would have shouted that from the housetops, no?
    A bit delayed, but you can read in these conferences to the seminarians (same link as above) what Archbishop Lefebvre had to say about the marriage annulment situation. The idea that he did not take it seriously, or that this issue could not have been resolved just does not wash:

    https://ia802702.us.archive.org/18/items/LefebvreRidgefield8283A/Lefebvre%20Ridgefield%2082%2083%20a_text.pdf


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #144 on: December 06, 2023, 06:02:49 AM »
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  • Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.

    Give us a break.  Refusing communion with and submission to the hierarchy, to the Magisterium, is contrary to every known Catholic principle.  To claim that the Catholic Church has become corrupt in its Magisterium and in the Mass is contrary to every known Catholic principle.  No Catholic theologian has ever asserted that it's possible for the Church to become corrupt in its Magisterium and in its Public Worship.  Those are the "principles" of Old Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.  Your babbling about Catholic "principles" borders on the absurd.

    We have walls of papal teaching (that have been posted repeatedly here) that the Magisterium can never be blemished by error.

    Dogmatic teaching of Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus:
    Quote
    Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

    If Vatican II and the post-Vatican II "Magisterium" does not constitute (according to R&R) the See of Peter being "...blemished by error," then there's no such thing and the words above are meaningless drivel.  And they are, according to R&R.

    What's more, the Council of Trent anathematized the proposition that the rites used by the Church can be an inducement to impiety.

    Many of you are treading on dangerous ground, flirting with heresy, and have essentially become thinly-veiled Old Catholics.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #145 on: December 06, 2023, 06:14:47 AM »
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  • And, of course, Plenus here keeps dishonestly conflating the issues that The Nine had with "sedevacantism," even though not all of The Nine were actually sedevacantists, and it was not one of the key issues for The Nine.  What were at issue are some of the very same principles that The Resistance criticize neo-SSPX for.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #146 on: December 06, 2023, 06:19:39 AM »
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  • And, of course, Plenus here keeps dishonestly conflating the issues that The Nine had with "sedevacantism," even though not all of The Nine were actually sedevacantists, and it was not one of the key issues for The Nine.  What were at issue are some of the very same principles that The Resistance criticize neo-SSPX for.
    Yes, except he isn't the only one. The change occurred a few pages back.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #147 on: December 06, 2023, 06:31:57 AM »
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  • Yes, except he isn't the only one. The change occurred a few pages back.

    Yes, that shift has occurred numerous times during this thread, and I try to call it out each time I see it.  It's simply dishonest.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #148 on: December 06, 2023, 11:16:51 AM »
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  • Yes, that shift has occurred numerous times during this thread, and I try to call it out each time I see it.  It's simply dishonest.
    Not to mention that it serves the purpose of diverting attention away from the real issues raised by the Nine.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #149 on: December 06, 2023, 12:06:25 PM »
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  • While it is true that the conciliar popes are engaged in trying to destroy any and all Catholic principles, they could not come close to actually achieving the current level of success unless helped by *all* those who help(ed) them.

    The point is, you should not place 100% of the blame on the conciliar popes because they were not in this alone, they in fact had/have plenty of help to do the job. But yes, the popes are guilty, but I think a point often ignored or forgotten and rarely, if ever, ever mentioned, is that *all* those who chose to follow the conciliar popes add(ed) to the destruction are also guilty - the degree of culpability is the only difference.

    I do agree they've had help but would add that 'the buck stops here' (at the top - as in 'the apostasy begins at the top').

    I responded to your message but it didn't show up in my sent box.  Let me know if you don't get it and I'll try it again.