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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22484 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2023, 10:51:51 AM »
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  • That's a bit of a slippery standard, and potentially a double-edged sword.  In fact, the neo-SSPX point out the debacles with Fr. Pfeiffer, Pfeifferville, and Fr. Hewko as examples of the bad fruits of the Resistance.  SVs' good fruits are the same as that of most Trad clergy ... providing the Traditional Catholic Sacraments and exposure to the Catholic faith to the laity.  There are good SV priests, and some not-so-good ones.  There are some good R&R priests, and some not so good (CM exposed quite a few of the bad ones, and then there are Modernists like Fr. Paul Robinson floating around).  Nobody is perfect or pure here.

    My point is that the specific "accident" of sedevacantism hasn't added one iota of benefit to the plain vanilla Traditional Movement. We could list good fruits all day long from the Traditional Movement (not counting EXCEPTIONS due to bad priests -- bad men -- human beings -- sin is present wherever there are human beings).

    Souls are in heaven due to the Traditional Movement. Families exist. Children have been born. Countless good.

    But none of that was from throwing darts at a picture of the Pope, calling Pope John Paul II "Wojtyla", or whatever the formal component of Sedevacantism entails, practically speaking. What IS the practical expression of Sedevacantism?

    How would a "Sedevacantist Traditional Catholic" date look different from a "Traditional Catholic" date? That's why I keep using the imagery of throwing darts at a picture of the Pope. It's ridiculous, but so is sedevacantism if you think about it. Not the theological position per se, but making it an identity.

    Sedevacantism shouldn't affect your primary identity, your personal pronoun, your choice of where to attend Mass (or where to AVOID Mass) or anything else.

    But some priests have made the dubious/unlikely theological opinion of sedevacantism into a shibboleth, a sine qua non, a litmus test of Catholicity -- and an excuse to be home alone when there are plenty of good Masses available within a short driving distance. It's criminal.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #121 on: December 05, 2023, 10:57:17 AM »
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  • in principle, the ISSUES that The Nine objected to in the early 1980s +Lefebvre very much align with those that the Resistance object to with neo-SSPX (at least some of the Resistance folks here on CI).

    Sure!

    And that $1,000 of my own money I'm walking off with looks EXACTLY LIKE the $1,000 Joe Public is walking off with, which belongs to a poor widow.

    But there's a big difference in the two situations! My walking off with $1K of my own money is NO SIN, not even a defect, whereas Joe Public commits a mortal sin by stealing more than a day's wages from that widow.

    See my point?

    Even if they are materially similar or even identical, "Little Things" like WHERE, WHEN or WHO OWNS IT make a heck of a lot of difference!

    Driving my car forward 10 feet is usually "no sin". But if 4 children were playing in the driveway and I drive forward 10 feet, I'd be guilty of 4 counts of murder. Big difference!
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #122 on: December 05, 2023, 10:59:35 AM »
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  • Ridiculous smear job and projection.  Some of us objected to how The Nine conducted themselves after their split, but there are those in the R&R camp who think that +Lefebvre is impeccable and infallible, infallible both when he says A and when he later says NOT A.  So both A and NOT A are true for the +Lefebvre cultists ... and thus the battle between some of them about which group is TRULY most loyal to +Lefebvre, because you can find quotes that The Resistance like and you can find quotes that the neo-SSPX like.  What puts it all into context is to understand the chronology, where in the early 1980s, +Lefebvre was optimistic and very amenable to a practical agreement with Rome.  At that time, The Nine split off for many of the same reasons that The Resistance object to the neo-SSPX orientation.  Only difference is that it was a temporary shift in +Lefebvre's thinking, and by 1985, he was solidly against any such cooperation with Rome ... whereas the neo-SSPX direction seems pretty set and not liable to change course, not to mention that the neo-SSPX have had the benefit of many extra decades of hindsight.  When Wojtyla arrived, +Lefebvre and others hoped that perhaps Montini was a one-off and that things would return to more normalcy under Wojtyla.  They realized after a few years that this was a misplaced hope.
    ^^This is one of those pat answers Meg mentioned.

    First, it gets old, very old to keep accusing us of thinking the +ABL was in any way impeccable or infallible. The whole idea is altogether absurd, not just to us, but to everyone - regardless of sede or R&R.

    Second, the SSPX was the Archbishop's to manage as he saw fit, which means the nine were pretty ridiculous to "resist him to his face" no matter what their reason. Thankfully +Sanborn's priests have yet to resist him to his face.

    Third, as you keep pointing out over and over and over, as it turned out, +ABL did something about the annulment issue, and also gave up hope for any cooperation with Rome. So there's two issues resolved, and had the Nine practiced patience and obedience and stuck to doing what they were ordained to do, right there is two less reasons to rebel against +ABL. But no, their stinking pride made them stand up and "resist him to his face," as if that was an act of holy nobility.

    Fourth would have been the 1962 missal - I like to think that the Nine would have already accepted the reasons behind +ABL's use of it and tolerated it - or convinced +ABL to use the pre-1962 Missal - whatever. Anything rather than cause the scandal they did forcing +ABL to expel them.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #123 on: December 05, 2023, 03:23:49 PM »
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  • Second, the SSPX was the Archbishop's to manage as he saw fit, which means the nine were pretty ridiculous to "resist him to his face" no matter what their reason. Thankfully +Sanborn's priests have yet to resist him to his face.
    Not so! If the SSPX were a congregation of common life without vows as Msgr. Lefebvre argued, the Society is governed by its constitutions and the juridical structures there established. A superior general is not a dictator; he works with other officers in managing according to the constitutions, the general chapters, and with the consultation of general council.

    If, however, the SSPX were mere a pious union (association of the faithful under the 83 Code), then...bah...everyone can do whaterever they wish within the bounds of civil, ecclesiastical, and moral law. I believe it was Fr. Cekada making the pious union argument who compared the SSPX to the Sacred Heart Auto League.

    Nevertheless, it remains, the SSPX was not something for Msgr. Lefebvre to do with as he pleased.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #124 on: December 05, 2023, 04:10:22 PM »
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  • Not so! If the SSPX were a congregation of common life without vows as Msgr. Lefebvre argued, the Society is governed by its constitutions and the juridical structures there established. A superior general is not a dictator; he works with other officers in managing according to the constitutions, the general chapters, and with the consultation of general council.

    If, however, the SSPX were mere a pious union (association of the faithful under the 83 Code), then...bah...everyone can do whaterever they wish within the bounds of civil, ecclesiastical, and moral law. I believe it was Fr. Cekada making the pious union argument who compared the SSPX to the Sacred Heart Auto League.

    Nevertheless, it remains, the SSPX was not something for Msgr. Lefebvre to do with as he pleased.

    What category do the sedevacantist groups and seminaries fall under? Are they pious unions, or a congregations of common life, or something else altogether? And who gets to judge who is in charge there, or if anyone should be in charge? Or do they have no rules at all, except what they make up for themselves?

    And of course they do get to make up everything for themselves, since they are far better than everyone else - God's chosen people, right?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Gunter

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #126 on: December 05, 2023, 05:26:44 PM »
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  • I believe it was Fr. Cekada making the pious union argument who compared the SSPX to the Sacred Heart Auto League.
    What an extraordinary statement. Poor Fr Cekada if this is true, I thought he was more intelligent than that, so much so that I refuse to believe it, out of charity, unless I hear the words from his mouth.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #127 on: December 05, 2023, 05:27:22 PM »
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  • ^^This is one of those pat answers Meg mentioned.

    First, it gets old, very old to keep accusing us of thinking the +ABL was in any way impeccable or infallible. The whole idea is altogether absurd, not just to us, but to everyone - regardless of sede or R&R.

    Second, the SSPX was the Archbishop's to manage as he saw fit, which means the nine were pretty ridiculous to "resist him to his face" no matter what their reason. Thankfully +Sanborn's priests have yet to resist him to his face.

    Third, as you keep pointing out over and over and over, as it turned out, +ABL did something about the annulment issue, and also gave up hope for any cooperation with Rome. So there's two issues resolved, and had the Nine practiced patience and obedience and stuck to doing what they were ordained to do, right there is two less reasons to rebel against +ABL. But no, their stinking pride made them stand up and "resist him to his face," as if that was an act of holy nobility.

    Fourth would have been the 1962 missal - I like to think that the Nine would have already accepted the reasons behind +ABL's use of it and tolerated it - or convinced +ABL to use the pre-1962 Missal - whatever. Anything rather than cause the scandal they did forcing +ABL to expel them.
    Very well said, Stubborn.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #128 on: December 05, 2023, 05:52:54 PM »
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  • My point is that the specific "accident" of sedevacantism hasn't added one iota of benefit to the plain vanilla Traditional Movement. We could list good fruits all day long from the Traditional Movement (not counting EXCEPTIONS due to bad priests -- bad men -- human beings -- sin is present wherever there are human beings).

    Souls are in heaven due to the Traditional Movement. Families exist. Children have been born. Countless good.

    But none of that was from throwing darts at a picture of the Pope, calling Pope John Paul II "Wojtyla", or whatever the formal component of Sedevacantism entails, practically speaking. What IS the practical expression of Sedevacantism?

    How would a "Sedevacantist Traditional Catholic" date look different from a "Traditional Catholic" date? That's why I keep using the imagery of throwing darts at a picture of the Pope. It's ridiculous, but so is sedevacantism if you think about it. Not the theological position per se, but making it an identity.

    Sedevacantism shouldn't affect your primary identity, your personal pronoun, your choice of where to attend Mass (or where to AVOID Mass) or anything else.

    But some priests have made the dubious/unlikely theological opinion of sedevacantism into a shibboleth, a sine qua non, a litmus test of Catholicity -- and an excuse to be home alone when there are plenty of good Masses available within a short driving distance. It's criminal.
    Well said, Matthew.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #129 on: December 05, 2023, 06:27:52 PM »
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  • What an extraordinary statement. Poor Fr Cekada if this is true, I thought he was more intelligent than that, so much so that I refuse to believe it, out of charity, unless I hear the words from his mouth.

    Not from his mouth, but from his pen.

    Right here: https://traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SSPXLegStat.pdf



    Quote
    A Simple Enrollment.

    The actual engagement formula used by the SSPX when I joined was "I N.N. give my name into the Fraternity of St. Pius X.”
    This language is merely an enrollment, and was completely consistent with the nature of a pious union: “I give my name” — call me for help teaching that CCD First Communion Class, put me on your list for collecting clothes and working in the St. Vincent de Paul soup kitchen.
    Easy in, easy out — like joining the Sacred Heart Auto League.

    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #130 on: December 05, 2023, 06:36:21 PM »
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  • Regardless of Fr. Cekada's attitude, it seems folks are upset that according to its foundations the SSPX is essentially a pious union and not an actual religious order?


    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #131 on: December 05, 2023, 06:40:43 PM »
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  • According to Fr. Chazal, Francis is a heretic and must be avoided. 

    We also know that heretics and apostates can not be pontiffs - along with women, the unbaptized, the insane and those under the age of reason. 

    Why is sedevacantism a shibboleth if it's merely following Catholic principles?

    But some priests have made the dubious/unlikely theological opinion of sedevacantism into a shibboleth...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #132 on: December 05, 2023, 07:18:04 PM »
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  • According to Fr. Chazal, Francis is a heretic and must be avoided. 

    We also know that heretics and apostates can not be pontiffs - along with women, the unbaptized, the insane and those under the age of reason. 

    Why is sedevacantism a shibboleth if it's merely following Catholic principles?

    But some priests have made the dubious/unlikely theological opinion of sedevacantism into a shibboleth...
    Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.
    The theological debate on this subject
    has been clearly demonstrated on other threads. It is taking an opinion, at best, and making it into a certain rule of conduct.
    Fr Chazal also said: "The practical behaviour of Catholics does not depend in any way on an opinion. What you say as a private person is not a dogma... and before Vatican II no dogma on this intricate, controversial and until then academic question had ever been formulated. On the contrary, with the exception of the time of Gratian, the constant unanimity was that there is no unanimity on this question."
    Here is an example of some opinions:

    Suarez - "...even Catholics are in disagreement about whether a Pontiff could be a heretic, and the quarrel is still undecided whether some Pontiff was a heretic..."
    St Francis de Sales -  "Under the ancient Law, the High Priest did not wear the Rational except when he was vested with the pontifical robe and was entering before the Lord. Thus, we do not say that the Pope cannot err in his private opinions, as did John XXII; or be altogether a heretic."
    St Robert Bellarmine - "suspicion of heresy... for then a Council ought to be gathered... to depose the Pope if he should be found to be a heretic..." "...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff... as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge..."

    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #133 on: December 05, 2023, 07:35:54 PM »
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  • Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.

    prin·ci·ple
    noun
    • 1.
      a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning

    Francis is a heretic.  Heretics are barred from the papacy.  You may disagree that Francis isn't a heretic, and that could be an opinion, but to say it doesn't follow principles?  Yawn...


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #134 on: December 05, 2023, 07:38:40 PM »
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  • Because it is not following Catholic principles. A theological opinion, perhaps.

    prin·ci·ple
    noun
    • 1.
      a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning

    Francis is a heretic.  Heretics are barred from the papacy.  You may disagree that Francis isn't a heretic, and that could be an opinion, but to say it doesn't follow principles?  Yawn...
    No, you need to read what I posted again and correct your reasoning... There is no logic in your response to what I said. You avoided the issue.