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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22472 times)

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Offline Kolar

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Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2023, 05:40:39 AM »
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    • After the split of the nine Archbishop Lefebvre ordered that the 1962 rubrics would be used in the seminaries. He never demanded this in the priories and chapels. He himself in his private Masses said in Our Lady's chapel in Econe used the older missal and rubrics. In fact he never seriously learned the 1962 rubrics. Fr. Edward Black, ordained in the 1970s, tells the story that when he was a deacon he was deacon at a Mass of Archbishop Lefebvre. Later he was waiting the priests table. Archbishop Lefebvre told him you made a mistake during Mass. Fr. Black said I was following the rubric. The Archbishop said no. One of the professors said, Actually Monsignor, that is the rubric. The Archbishop was considering the older rubrics. Sometime after his ordinations Fr. Black himself starting saying Mass according to the pre-1962 rite. There was never a problem with priests using the older rite in the SSPX. It was only that The Nine made an issue of it. Poor Fr. Zapp was used as a pawn by Fr. Sanborn. He was told 'refuse to go to St Marys'. In St. Marys at that time they used the 1962 missal and did not wear birettas. Later and Paradoxically Fr. Angles wore a biretta and used the pre-1962 missal when rector of St. Marys.
    The 62 missal is valid but that doesn't mean it is good. It is a preparation for the new Mass, as are the New Holy Week ceremonies promulgated under Pius XII. Carol Byrne has written a good book about the New Holy Week, Born of Revolution. Volume 1, hopefully a second volume will come out. In Volume 1 she looks at the modernist principle of 'Active Presentataion'. What error will be featured in volume 2 I do not know. But I hope she publishes it soon.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #106 on: December 05, 2023, 05:50:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 05, 2023, 05:21:26 AM
    The issues were concerning things that their conscience would’t allow them to compromise on. With all due respect to the Archbishop, he forced their hand.
    He didn't force their hand to be ordained priests of the SSPX. They stole the priesthood, their posts to SSPX priories/seminaries, all the while plotting to dictate terms to the Archbishop regarding the matters he refers to above that they had accepted while they were in the seminary... how convenient. Yet they knew better, just like the ones in 1977 when ABL lost almost his entire teaching staff at Econe who wanted the Archbishop to retire to a lovely house in Germany so they could take over and make their compromise with Rome on the New Mass and the Council in order to be able to legally say their Traditional Mass. He got rid of them all. The marriage 'issue' is nothing but a red herring.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #107 on: December 05, 2023, 06:00:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 05, 2023, 05:50:25 AM
    He didn't force their hand to be ordained priests of the SSPX. They stole the priesthood, their posts to SSPX priories/seminaries, all the while plotting to dictate terms to the Archbishop regarding the matters he refers to above that they had accepted while they were in the seminary... how convenient. Yet they knew better, just like the ones in 1977 when ABL lost almost his entire teaching staff at Econe who wanted the Archbishop to retire to a lovely house in Germany so they could take over and make their compromise with Rome on the New Mass and the Council in order to be able to legally say their Traditional Mass. He got rid of them all. The marriage 'issue' is nothing but a red herring.
    It amounts to they wanted +ABL's SSPX to be a type of democracy where the priests had a type of authority to dictate certain ideas, to mandate their ideas into practice, and now that they have their own seminaries and priests, do you think they give their priests that same authority? I think not.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #108 on: December 05, 2023, 06:04:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 04, 2023, 07:58:28 PM
    I think we are just going to keep going back and forth.  This all happened 40 years ago.

    True, and this brings to light the fact that many in the Resistance (and even some in the neo-SSPX) are having some of the same reservations about the neo-SSPX's acceptance of NO Holy Orders that The Nine did in the early 1980s.  We have Resistance folks here impugning the use of Huonder for Holy Oils, confirmations, and the blessing of churches ... due to doubts about his Holy Orders, and we've had reports that some neo-SSPX priests have pushed back against using Huonder's oils.  After The Nine left, the SSPX also ended up instituting various quasi-tribunals to evaluate various NO annulments ... which is basically what The Nine wanted.  And then we have Resistance supporters such as SeanJohnson arguing strongly in favor of going back to the pre-1955 Missal.  Aren't these the same points that The Nine were making?  As I said, I'm not a fan of how they conducted themselves after the fallout, but in terms of the core principles, they were taking the same positions that many in the Resistance are taking now.  And, in fact, in the early 1980s, you had +Lefebvre seeking some practical agreement with Rome, asking Modernist Rome to allow the SSPX to make the "experiment of Tradition", and many of the quotes that neo-SSPX use to back their position come from Archbishop Lefebvre in the early 1980s.  As for the sedevacantism, as has been pointed out, that wasn't a key driver for The Nine, as some of them were not SV at the time of the split.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #109 on: December 05, 2023, 06:06:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 05, 2023, 05:50:25 AM
    They stole the priesthood ...

    No, Archbishop Lefebvre does not "own" the priesthood.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #110 on: December 05, 2023, 06:07:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 05, 2023, 05:50:25 AM
    The marriage 'issue' is nothing but a red herring.

    Also untrue.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #111 on: December 05, 2023, 07:22:27 AM »
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    He received the 1962 missal and Novus Ordo sacraments
    These 2 things shouldn't be in the same sentence.  The former is essentially the same (minus calendar changes) as the 1955 missal.  The latter is a schismatic/heretical sacrilege.  The 62 missal is not the problem.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #112 on: December 05, 2023, 07:53:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 05, 2023, 06:04:20 AM
    True, and this brings to light the fact that many in the Resistance (and even some in the neo-SSPX) are having some of the same reservations about the neo-SSPX's acceptance of NO Holy Orders that The Nine did in the early 1980s.  We have Resistance folks here impugning the use of Huonder for Holy Oils, confirmations, and the blessing of churches ... due to doubts about his Holy Orders, and we've had reports that some neo-SSPX priests have pushed back against using Huonder's oils.  After The Nine left, the SSPX also ended up instituting various quasi-tribunals to evaluate various NO annulments ... which is basically what The Nine wanted.  And then we have Resistance supporters such as SeanJohnson arguing strongly in favor of going back to the pre-1955 Missal.  Aren't these the same points that The Nine were making?  As I said, I'm not a fan of how they conducted themselves after the fallout, but in terms of the core principles, they were taking the same positions that many in the Resistance are taking now.  And, in fact, in the early 1980s, you had +Lefebvre seeking some practical agreement with Rome, asking Modernist Rome to allow the SSPX to make the "experiment of Tradition", and many of the quotes that neo-SSPX use to back their position come from Archbishop Lefebvre in the early 1980s.  As for the sedevacantism, as has been pointed out, that wasn't a key driver for The Nine, as some of them were not SV at the time of the split.
    And I fear splits will keep happening.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #113 on: December 05, 2023, 07:57:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 05, 2023, 07:53:50 AM
    And I fear splits will keep happening.

    Indeed.  We see more clearly than ever how the papacy is the principle of unity in the Church, and that now, as Pope Leo XIII prophetically stated in his original exorcism prayer, when the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #114 on: December 05, 2023, 08:18:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 05, 2023, 07:57:42 AM
    Indeed.  We see more clearly than ever how the papacy is the principle of unity in the Church, and that now, as Pope Leo XIII prophetically stated in his original exorcism prayer, when the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered.

    Father Chazal had his famous diagram of all the splits among sedevacantists, but we see clearly that this phenomenon is not limited to SVs.  Many priests have broken from SSPX to FSSP or Novus Ordo or Eatern Rite.  Others split off into the Resistance, and the Resistance has been very fragmented, between Pfeifferville and then Fr. Hewko splitting from them, etc.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #115 on: December 05, 2023, 09:43:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 05, 2023, 06:00:10 AM
    It amounts to they wanted +ABL's SSPX to be a type of democracy where the priests had a type of authority to dictate certain ideas, to mandate their ideas into practice, and now that they have their own seminaries and priests, do you think they give their priests that same authority? I think not.

    Good question.

    The sedevacantists always have a pat answer for everything. They can never admit any wrongdoing. Any wrongdoing is always someone else's fault.

    That's why I question the good of bringing up the subject of the Nine. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #116 on: December 05, 2023, 10:22:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 05, 2023, 09:43:55 AM
    The sedevacantists always have a pat answer for everything. They can never admit any wrongdoing. Any wrongdoing is always someone else's fault.

    Ridiculous smear job and projection.  Some of us objected to how The Nine conducted themselves after their split, but there are those in the R&R camp who think that +Lefebvre is impeccable and infallible, infallible both when he says A and when he later says NOT A.  So both A and NOT A are true for the +Lefebvre cultists ... and thus the battle between some of them about which group is TRULY most loyal to +Lefebvre, because you can find quotes that The Resistance like and you can find quotes that the neo-SSPX like.  What puts it all into context is to understand the chronology, where in the early 1980s, +Lefebvre was optimistic and very amenable to a practical agreement with Rome.  At that time, The Nine split off for many of the same reasons that The Resistance object to the neo-SSPX orientation.  Only difference is that it was a temporary shift in +Lefebvre's thinking, and by 1985, he was solidly against any such cooperation with Rome ... whereas the neo-SSPX direction seems pretty set and not liable to change course, not to mention that the neo-SSPX have had the benefit of many extra decades of hindsight.  When Wojtyla arrived, +Lefebvre and others hoped that perhaps Montini was a one-off and that things would return to more normalcy under Wojtyla.  They realized after a few years that this was a misplaced hope.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #117 on: December 05, 2023, 10:38:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 05, 2023, 10:22:13 AM
    At that time, The Nine split off for many of the same reasons that The Resistance object to the neo-SSPX orientation.  Only difference is that it was a temporary shift in +Lefebvre's thinking, and by 1985, he was solidly against any such cooperation with Rome ... whereas the neo-SSPX direction seems pretty set and not liable to change course, not to mention that the neo-SSPX have had the benefit of many extra decades of hindsight.  When Wojtyla arrived, +Lefebvre and others hoped that perhaps Montini was a one-off and that things would return to more normalcy under Wojtyla.  They realized after a few years that this was a misplaced hope.

    That's like saying there's a "small difference" between walking off with $1,000 of your own money, and $1,000 of a poor widow's money. Talk about an understatement!

    That "little" issue about hindsight makes all the difference in the world. +Lefebvre wasn't a sedevacantist, and for good reason. There was no reason to "go there" at that time. And to this day, 100% of sedes worldwide haven't achieved a DARN THING they couldn't have done as non-Sede Traditional Catholics. What has sedevacantism achieved in 5 decades? Nothing.

    Show me a good fruit of sedevacantism, and I'll show you a good fruit of the Traditional Movement.

    Back to +Lefebvre --
    So he was trying to hope, while also having incomplete information about the depth and FUTURE length of the Crisis. You can't judge him the same as Bishop Fellay. Archbishop Lefebvre was just hopeful and optimistic, that this Crisis could be turned around. +Fellay on the other hand was maliciously ignoring 40 years of a FIRMLY ESTABLISHED NEW RELIGION, a NEW PERMANENT DIRECTION for the Conciliar Church.

    Neither was +Lefebvre puffed up, saying anything like "I will succeed in ending the Crisis, where X had failed." +Fellay DID say this. He literally said he would succeed where +Lefebvre had failed.

    Many Traditional groups have been tricked, scammed, and double-crossed by Rome over the decades. But ALL OF THEM were after 1983. +Fellay had access to that history of Modern Rome's betrayals and evil schemes, while +Lefebvre did not.

    But how many have thought about that? Has the average Trad stopped and thought: in 1983 there was only 1 Vatican II Pope other than the recently elected Pope John Paul II? I won't count JP1 because his reign lasted mere days. You're right: Pope Paul VI could have been a one-off. And the Crisis was only 13 years old. Not even old enough to drive!

    Today, the Crisis is old enough to join the AARP -- pretty soon it will be able to retire with full Social Security benefits.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #118 on: December 05, 2023, 10:44:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 05, 2023, 10:38:05 AM
    Show me a good fruit of sedevacantism, and I'll show you a good fruit of the Traditional Movement.

    That's a bit of a slippery standard, and potentially a double-edged sword.  In fact, the neo-SSPX point out the debacles with Fr. Pfeiffer, Pfeifferville, and Fr. Hewko as examples of the bad fruits of the Resistance.  SVs' good fruits are the same as that of most Trad clergy ... providing the Traditional Catholic Sacraments and exposure to the Catholic faith to the laity.  There are good SV priests, and some not-so-good ones.  There are some good R&R priests, and some not so good (CM exposed quite a few of the bad ones, and then there are Modernists like Fr. Paul Robinson floating around).  Nobody is perfect or pure here.  And it's not correct to equate "sedevacantism" with the issues of The Nine.  As has been pointed out, not all of them even were sedevacantists at the time of the split, and it was not really a point of emphasis in their split.  It was more about NO Holy Orders, NO annulments, and the pre-1955 Liturgy.  We have Sean here objecting to the exact same things vis-a-vis the neo-SSPX,  well, 2 of them,+Huonder's questionable orders and the use of the 1962 Liturgy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #119 on: December 05, 2023, 10:47:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 05, 2023, 10:38:05 AM
    That's like saying there's a "small difference" between walking off with $1,000 of your own money, and $1,000 of a poor widow's money. Talk about an understatement!
    ...
    Back to +Lefebvre --
    So he was trying to hope, while also having incomplete information about the depth and FUTURE length of the Crisis. You can't judge him the same as Bishop Fellay. Archbishop Lefebvre was just hopeful and optimistic, that this Crisis could be turned around. +Fellay on the other hand was maliciously ignoring 40 years of a FIRMLY ESTABLISHED NEW RELIGION, a NEW PERMANENT DIRECTION for the Conciliar Church.

    I already called out that difference ... though evidently without sufficient emphasis.  But in principle, the ISSUES that The Nine objected to in the early 1980s +Lefebvre very much align with those that the Resistance object to with neo-SSPX (at least some of the Resistance folks here on CI).
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