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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22474 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2023, 12:14:54 PM »
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    If the properties were in the name of the SSPX, The Nine would not have gotten any of them.
    If the sspx controlled the properties, there wouldn't have been any lawsuit.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #91 on: December 04, 2023, 12:24:11 PM »
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  • In any event, in God’s providence, it was a great thing that the properties are not now in the hands of the neo SSPX.
    That certainly is the long and the short of it. Thanks for the reminder.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #92 on: December 04, 2023, 01:24:55 PM »
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  • So....because the SSPX have themselves taken over properties, this means that it's fine that the Nine did the same thing. Just one example of strange Sede logic, which is why I don't trust the sede view of anything, though I do believe that the sedevacantists have a right to their view of the Crisis.

    One thing I don't understand. The owner of the forum has criticized the Nine, but at the same time, most of the active forum members are of some variety of sedevacantist, so why say anything against the Nine, when it is obvious that very few here are going to agree that there was a problem with the Nine?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #93 on: December 04, 2023, 05:58:14 PM »
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  • ...so why say anything against the Nine, when it is obvious that very few here are going to agree that there was a problem with the Nine?
    I would hope, Meg, that none of us on this forum silences the truth for fear that some may disagree with it... This is the big problem with the "good" priests in the neo-SSPX - agreeing to be silent. It may well be that prudence sometimes dictates this course of action, but not when it comes to dangers to the Faith. When it comes to "The Nine", Archbishop Lefebvre considered it a danger and a scandal, which is why he took the measures that he did. Matthew allows sedes to air their views on this site. The least he can do is present the side of our beloved Archbishop, don't you agree? What would our Sedevacantist friends think of us if we did not... they might start to think they are right!!!

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #94 on: December 04, 2023, 06:05:27 PM »
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    So....because the SSPX have themselves taken over properties, this means that it's fine that the Nine did the same thing. Just one example of strange Sede logic,
    (for the 2nd thread in a row)...if you had read the WHOLE THREAD, what you're saying is wrong.  :facepalm:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #95 on: December 04, 2023, 06:18:07 PM »
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  • When it comes to "The Nine", Archbishop Lefebvre considered it a danger and a scandal, which is why he took the measures that he did.

    Unfortunately, with all due respect to +Lefebvre, I don't think this is true at all.  When he made his case, his ostensible reason was to have some order and uniformity in the Society.  I don't think he believed it to be a scandal or danger to question NO annulments or Holy Orders (he said it would be preferable if Stark would have consented to being conditionally ordained), nor did he think anything wrong about the pre-1955 Missal.  But the unavoidable bottom line is that he was in fact cozying up to Rome at the time, making overtures to Wojtyla to allow the SSPX to make the "experiment of Tradition" in the Conciliar pantheon.  He was extremely tolerant of sedevacantism in the 1970s, and then from about 1985 until his death.  In the mid- to late- 1980s he believed that all NO Sacraments were doubtful (Sean Johnson cited him along those lines), and the SSPX themselves set up various tribunals to investigate various NO annulments.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #96 on: December 04, 2023, 06:29:07 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, with all due respect to +Lefebvre, I don't think this is true at all.  When he made his case, his ostensible reason was to have some order and uniformity in the Society.  I don't think he believed it to be a scandal or danger to question NO annulments or Holy Orders (he said it would be preferable if Stark would have consented to being conditionally ordained), nor did he think anything wrong about the pre-1955 Missal.  But the unavoidable bottom line is that he was in fact cozying up to Rome at the time, making overtures to Wojtyla to allow the SSPX to make the "experiment of Tradition" in the Conciliar pantheon.  He was extremely tolerant of sedevacantism in the 1970s, and then from about 1985 until his death.  In the mid- to late- 1980s he believed that all NO Sacraments were doubtful (Sean Johnson cited him along those lines), and the SSPX themselves set up various tribunals to investigate various NO annulments.
    Below is the Archbishop's response at the time: "This radicalism is not the attitude of the Society" - it wasn't the attitude of ABL then and it never was, never! His doubts concerning the sacraments were for reasons different from 'The Nine':

    What was latent for many years in the relations between most of the priests of the North-East District and the Society of Saint Pius X, and was the object of continual difficulties, has just come out into the open by the support given by these priests to the refusal of the Society’s liturgy by one of the three young priests I ordained at Oyster Bay Cove on November 3, 1982.
    Thus, their long-standing disagreement with myself and the Society has now become public rebellion. It is the result of an extremist way of thinking and a tendency to schism in the domain of the liturgy, the papacy, and the sacraments of the reform.
    They reject the liturgy which has always been used in the Society and consider it evil, the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council. They think and behave as if there is no Pope, suppressing all prayers for the Pope. In practice, they tend to hold almost all the sacraments of the new rites to be invalid.
    This radicalism is not the attitude of the Society.
    The basic principle of the Society’s thinking and action in the painful crisis the Church is going through is the principle taught by St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica (II, II, q. 33, a.4). That one may not oppose the authority of the Church except in the case of imminent danger to the Faith. Now, there is no danger for the Faith in the liturgy of Pope Pius XII and Pope John XXIII, whereas there is great danger for the Faith in the liturgy of Pope Paul VI, which is unacceptable.
    The Society acts on the assumption that Pope John Paul II is Pope and so prays for him and strives to bring him back to Tradition by praying for him, by meeting with those around him, and by writing to him.
    The Society does not say that all the sacraments according to the new post-conciliar rites are invalid, but that due to bad translations, the lack of proper intention, and the changes introduced in the matter and form, the number of invalid and doubtful sacraments is increasing. In order, then, to reach a decision in the practical order concerning the doubtfulness or invalidity of sacraments given by priests imbued with the ideas of the Council, a serious study of the various circuмstances is necessary.
    Many of you know the difficulties to which the attitude of these priests has given rise. Many of you have suffered from it and so will not be surprised by this clarification of the situation.




    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #97 on: December 04, 2023, 07:58:28 PM »
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  • I think we are just going to keep going back and forth.  This all happened 40 years ago.  What I want to know is how now can the 5 that are left make reparations?  The SSPX has changed again, so most of the people here wouldn't expect them to make apologies to +Felay?  Would a public apology suffice? Should they say if they went back they would do it differently, like taking the higher ground and starting over (as Ladislaus mentioned).  Then we just enter in to another issue.  Since some of the 9 have been made Bishops outside of +ABL then does +Zendejas or +Williamson need to conditionally consecrate them? Since we have no official authority per se, is it even possible that these bishops and priests start taking the higher ground to undo all the knots that have been created since Vatican II?

    I don't know.  Just throwing thoughts out there.:confused:
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #98 on: December 04, 2023, 09:28:23 PM »
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  • I think we are just going to keep going back and forth.  This all happened 40 years ago.  What I want to know is how now can the 5 that are left make reparations?  The SSPX has changed again, so most of the people here wouldn't expect them to make apologies to +Felay?  Would a public apology suffice? Should they say if they went back they would do it differently, like taking the higher ground and starting over (as Ladislaus mentioned).  Then we just enter in to another issue.  Since some of the 9 have been made Bishops outside of +ABL then does +Zendejas or +Williamson need to conditionally consecrate them? Since we have no official authority per se, is it even possible that these bishops and priests start taking the higher ground to undo all the knots that have been created since Vatican II?

    I don't know.  Just throwing thoughts out there.:confused:
    I think we will have to wait for the return to Tradition of the Supreme Shepherd for such a miracle, and perhaps the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #99 on: December 05, 2023, 05:03:53 AM »
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  • In any event, in God’s providence, it was a great thing that the properties are not now in the hands of the neo SSPX.
    See QV, I look at it from another point of view.

     If they would never have split, (I am very biased for +Sanborn here),  I believe +Sanborn would have been SG, maybe still the SG today. As such, there would be no neo SSPX, no Resistance, probably no FSSP, presumably none of the various splinter and various sede groups that were born from SSPX priests.

     The SSPX would be what, two or three times the size it is now, maybe 10 or 50 times the size it is now, who is to say what blessings that would have wrought - had there been no split. I know that in those days, that was the plan, i.e. to keep ordaining priests. Too bad that division slammed the door on it.

    That's the Providence that was hoped for. The Nine drove a wedge into it.



      

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #100 on: December 05, 2023, 05:17:11 AM »
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  • See QV, I look at it from another point of view.

     If they would never have split, (I am very biased for +Sanborn here),  I believe +Sanborn would have been SG, maybe still the SG today. As such, there would be no neo SSPX, no Resistance, probably no FSSP, presumably none of the various splinter and various sede groups that were born from SSPX priests.

     The SSPX would be what, two or three times the size it is now, maybe 10 or 50 times the size it is now, who is to say what blessings that would have wrought - had there been no split. I know that in those days, that was the plan, i.e. to keep ordaining priests. Too bad that division slammed the door on it.

    That's the Providence that was hoped for. The Nine drove a wedge into it.
    Thought provoking take on things, Stubborn. Perhaps the USA would be a Catholic State now!


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #101 on: December 05, 2023, 05:21:26 AM »
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  • See QV, I look at it from another point of view.

     If they would never have split, (I am very biased for +Sanborn here),  I believe +Sanborn would have been SG, maybe still the SG today. As such, there would be no neo SSPX, no Resistance, probably no FSSP, presumably none of the various splinter and various sede groups that were born from SSPX priests.

     The SSPX would be what, two or three times the size it is now, maybe 10 or 50 times the size it is now, who is to say what blessings that would have wrought - had there been no split. I know that in those days, that was the plan, i.e. to keep ordaining priests. Too bad that division slammed the door on it.

    That's the Providence that was hoped for. The Nine drove a wedge into it.



     

    The issues were concerning things that their conscience would’t allow them to compromise on. With all due respect to the Archbishop, he forced their hand. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #102 on: December 05, 2023, 05:32:53 AM »
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  • The issues were concerning things that their conscience would’t allow them to compromise on. With all due respect to the Archbishop, he forced their hand.
    Although I understand what you're saying, what +ABL did was hand down what he received. What he received and handed down was rejected, and it was rejected whether due to a conflict of conscience or some other reason. Had they stayed, then they too could have continued to hand down what they had received. As it is, the question is, where did they receive that which they've been handing down?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #103 on: December 05, 2023, 05:37:45 AM »
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  • Although I understand what you're saying, what +ABL did was hand down what he received. What he received and handed down was rejected, and it was rejected whether due to a conflict of conscience or some other reason. Had they stayed, then they too could have continued to hand down what they had received. As it is, the question is, where did they receive that which they've been handing down?
    He received the 1962 missal and Novus Ordo sacraments as much as he received Vatican II. It's the same authority behind it.

    What ridiculous framing. Everyone knows sedevacantists are the ones passing on everything just as it was handed down before V2, Lefebvrites are the ones dropping things along the way.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #104 on: December 05, 2023, 05:39:39 AM »
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  • He received the 1962 missal and Novus Ordo sacraments as much as he received Vatican II. It's the same authority behind it.

    What ridiculous framing. Everyone knows sedevacantists are the ones passing on everything just as it was handed down before V2, Lefebvrites are the ones dropping things along the way.
    Yes, and we know this by the disunity it has wrought. :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse