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Author Topic: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX  (Read 22460 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2023, 04:33:54 PM »
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  • I remember the Nine referred to as the Nervous Nine and the Nasty Nine in my area since they took most of the money and those of us who stayed with Msgr. Lefebvre has to start over with very little. The Nine got a church in the 1980s whilst we only got a new church two years ago.

    Call me what you will, but in MY book that is NOT FAIR.

    That chapel was started by Abp. Lefebvre and his group, and they did all the work building it up. THEY should get to keep it. If someone with a personal opinion (anti-Sede, choice of Missale, opinion on what to do about annulments during the Crisis, etc.) they are always free to leave -- and start over. The burden should be on THEM with the picky opinions.
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #46 on: December 03, 2023, 04:48:55 PM »
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  • Call me what you will, but in MY book that is NOT FAIR.

    That chapel was started by Abp. Lefebvre and his group, and they did all the work building it up. THEY should get to keep it. If someone with a personal opinion (anti-Sede, choice of Missale, opinion on what to do about annulments during the Crisis, etc.) they are always free to leave -- and start over. The burden should be on THEM with the picky opinions.
    Mathew's just war theory. Does he believe that peace can be established after the war and that the two warring parties could work in common with the same vision, the salvation of souls?


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #47 on: December 03, 2023, 05:16:10 PM »
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  • Mathew's just war theory. Does he believe that peace can be established after the war and that the two warring parties could work in common with the same vision, the salvation of souls?
    From what I understand, the SSPX and SSPV priests assigned here flew into town on the same connector flight in the years immediately pre-COVID, and they got along civilly.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #48 on: December 03, 2023, 08:01:39 PM »
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  • At this point in the Battle between the Jews and the Remnant Catholic Church, 
    who cares about old SSPX & SSPV animosities?

    The only question is, are SSPV Sacraments valid?

    :popcorn:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #49 on: December 03, 2023, 08:46:37 PM »
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  • At this point in the Battle between the Jews and the Remnant Catholic Church,
    who cares about old SSPX & SSPV animosities?

    The only question is, are SSPV Sacraments valid?

    :popcorn:
    I have the same question. Any doubt surrounding SSPV sacraments?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #50 on: December 03, 2023, 09:23:49 PM »
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  • I have the same question. Any doubt surrounding SSPV sacraments?

    I don't think so. 

    And it seems the old talismanic word "sede-vacantist" the SSPX uses to label them... is losing it's mo-jo.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #51 on: December 03, 2023, 09:37:29 PM »
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  • I don't think so. 

    And it seems the old talismanic word "sede-vacantist" the SSPX uses to label them... is losing it's mo-jo.

    Dear Incredulous,
    I "Huondor" why?

    Offline trento

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #52 on: December 03, 2023, 10:11:07 PM »
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  • You've obviously heard their arguments first. There's a very sane and reasonable answer to all those objections.

    A superior general can't have chaos in the organization. Imagine if some SSPX chapels had the 1962 Missal and others used different older versions. And then, let's say you're happy with the version used at your chapel -- then a new priest moves in! Now the chapel changes what version is used. It would be chaos.

    And the annulments issue touches on the Crisis in the Church. If we don't respect the Marriage Tribunals of the Catholic Church, then whose Marriage Tribunals DO we respect? Because life goes on, including marriage (and marriage problems), during the Crisis in the Church. Humans are still humans. Humans are as fallible and slipshod as they come. Anything involving humans is GOING to have problems.

    It's not the job of a priest at a Trad chapel to play God. It's his job to shepherd this particular lost flock (sheep without a shepherd), bringing them the Mass and sacraments. But it's the responsibility of EACH INDIVIDUAL where they will go to Mass, what Missal they insist on, whether they're in the state of grace and fit to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion, etc. But some priests put additional burdens on would-be communicants. See the problem?

    God is God. He can take care of Himself. He doesn't need us to "protect Him", or withhold communion from this or that Trad Catholic. The Church is clear on this matter: unless a would-be communicant is a *public sinner*, the priest is to administer Communion. As for preventing sacrileges to this Holy Sacrament, public sinners are the only low-hanging fruit we're allowed to "pick" as it were. For the rest, God has decided that it will be on the conscience of each communicant. Read St. Paul -- he speaks about this very topic. 1 Corinthians chapter 11


      27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.  28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.  29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord
    I'll agree with Matthew here. If you see the current situation between SGG and RCI, you can see what a mess it is. +Sanborn even bans Gothic-styled vestments for priests in his RCI group. :popcorn:


    Offline trento

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #53 on: December 03, 2023, 10:24:08 PM »
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  • While I agree with Matthew that what the Nine did to ABL was nefarious, I can't help but notice that certain Resistance locations are following in the footsteps of the Nine when it comes to their fight against the SSPX on the topics of the liturgical books, tradcuмenism with sedevacantism, and civil lawsuits.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #54 on: December 04, 2023, 03:20:14 AM »
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  • While I agree with Matthew that what the Nine did to ABL was nefarious, I can't help but notice that certain Resistance locations are following in the footsteps of the Nine when it comes to their fight against the SSPX on the topics of the liturgical books, tradcuмenism with sedevacantism, and civil lawsuits.
    Yes, it's very disappointing. How can they claim to be the true followers of Archbishop Lefebvre with this independent spirit?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #55 on: December 04, 2023, 05:05:03 AM »
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  • +Sanborn even bans Gothic-styled vestments for priests in his RCI group.
    Msgr. Sanborn was vocally opposed to gothic vestments when he was rector of STAS before the split of the Nine.

    In gustibus...
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #56 on: December 04, 2023, 05:10:01 AM »
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  • No need to guess.

    "The overwhelming majority of lay members in each place supported our stand against Abp. Lefebvre and his organization."
    https://traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NineVLefebvre.pdf

    Here's +ABL's side of the story.

    Having been there, I disagree that the majority agreed.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #57 on: December 04, 2023, 05:33:57 AM »
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  • Quote
    One of the last conversations I had with Father Collins was about his puzzlement, that if and when we obtained a true pope, how it was humanly possible for him (the pope) to straighten out this universal marriage mess.
    I don't know and maybe, somehow I completely missed this back in the day, but because it sounds like a lie to me, I would have to see this "general policy whereby it would presume the validity of the new Church annulments without investigation." 

    I know of at least one annulment a long time ago, maybe 20-30 years ago or so that was investigated, I do not know what the outcome was.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #58 on: December 04, 2023, 07:13:38 AM »
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  • I don't know and maybe, somehow I completely missed this back in the day, but because it sounds like a lie to me, I would have to see this "general policy whereby it would presume the validity of the new Church annulments without investigation." 

    I know of at least one annulment a long time ago, maybe 20-30 years ago or so that was investigated, I do not know what the outcome was.
    This was one of the main issues for the Nine.  Did the Archbishop ever make a statement saying it was not true? Or a clarification of the policy?  I see he responded to the issue over JXXIII's Missal of 1962, but I can't find his response to the issue of conciliar annulments.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Evils of the Nine against the good SSPX
    « Reply #59 on: December 04, 2023, 07:38:29 AM »
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  • It’s been a long time since I delved into what actually happened with those lawsuits
    I started to read more about it.  Interestingly enough, it was the Archbishop who wanted to sue initially.  He had no interest in negotiating a settlement. In the end, that is what happened anyway.