Who do they need to make that apology to?  I am asking these questions because I would like walls to come down between the Trad groups.  I am tired of seeing more walls go up and creating a maze that is almost impossible to solve.  I have started praying to St. Anthony to find the Church.

About St. Anthony finding the Church - where do you think that the Church is? Or where it might be?

It just feels like we are all lost wandering around in the desert.  We are now too many scattered sheep in a million different directions.  I know we don't have a shepherd and this is the result.  We do have basic Catholic principles that we CAN agree on.

This quote John 13: 34 - 35
"34  A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.  35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." doesn't seem to apply anymore.

Do we actually love each other, now?  Are we disciples of Christ? What Catholic group do we direct converts to? I think we have at least 3 different answers here.

Well, it would be nice to think that all we need is love.

Unfortunately, there's a serious Crisis in the Church. We didn't ask for it, but we probably deserved it. When the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered. So of course we are not going to be unified. We tend to want to think that our opinion of the Crisis is the only true opinion, when actually it is one of many. Maybe I'm wrong, but our opinion may be based on our own experience and understanding of the Crisis. We aren't God, so we can't see the whole picture. 

And the annulments issue touches on the Crisis in the Church. If we don't respect the Marriage Tribunals of the Catholic Church, then whose Marriage Tribunals DO we respect? Because life goes on, including marriage (and marriage problems), during the Crisis in the Church. Humans are still humans. Humans are as fallible and slipshod as they come. Anything involving humans is GOING to have problems.

So now you consider the NO church synonymous with the Catholic Church? I thought that you considered it the Conciliar church?

You actually trust that cesspool of a NO “tribunal”, that gives out annulments like candy, to resolve marriage cases? Sorry, but if you do, you really need to explain why you aren’t accepting the whole NO thing in total. 99% of these annulment cases could easily be resolved in the negative by my 12 year old son. No kidding and no exaggeration!

In other words, if you “respect” the NO Rota, why don’t you respect the new mass? Why do you have a problem with Vatican II, or ecuмenism, and the other facets of the NO church?

Mathew, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. This is what I was alluding to in my previous post about contradictions.

I’m not being rude or disrespectful, these are very serious and important questions you need to answer for yourself. You belittle the sedevacantist position and say it answers nothing, but in actuality these questions are almost completely resolved by sedevacantism.

My understanding is that at least 70% of US annulments are for defect of form (marrying outside the church without a dispensation). Isn't the scandal caused by those contracting invalid marriages rather than the tribunals?

Not all of the 9 were evil.  They didn't all agree, and that's why they went their separate ways.  Fr. Joseph Collins was good until the end.  He only spoke well of Archbishop Lefebvre.  May he rest in peace.  The others are another matter. 

I've never actually heard any of The Nine speak ill of Archbishop Lefebvre beyond the points of disagreement they had with him.  I got the impression that they respected him greatly, but disagreed on some matters.  It's the same way I feel about Bishop Williamson.  I greatly respect him ... but really can't agree on some of his points, e.g. regarding the NO Eucharistic miracles, Garabandal, Valtorta, etc.  You'll notice that most of these are in the same category ... that of purported private revelation, in which he seems overly inclined to believe.

So now you consider the NO church synonymous with the Catholic Church? I thought that you considered it the Conciliar church?

You actually trust that cesspool of a NO “tribunal”, that gives out annulments like candy, to resolve marriage cases? Sorry, but if you do, you really need to explain why you aren’t accepting the whole NO thing in total. 99% of these annulment cases could easily be resolved in the negative by my 12 year old son. No kidding and no exaggeration!

In other words, if you “respect” the NO Rota, why don’t you respect the new mass? Why do you have a problem with Vatican II, or ecuмenism, and the other facets of the NO church?

Mathew, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. This is what I was alluding to in my previous post about contradictions.

I’m not being rude or disrespectful, these are very serious and important questions you need to answer for yourself. You belittle the sedevacantist position and say it answers nothing, but in actuality these questions are almost completely resolved by sedevacantism.

It looks like he is just following what the Nine said ABL's new policy was in 1983:

The Society has recently enunciated a general policy whereby it would presume the validity of the new Church annulments without investigation. The only outcome of following such a policy will be serious public scandal, grave damage to family life and complicity with the new Church in its attack on the holy sacrament of Matrimony. In answer to an inquiry from a layman concerning the status of his second marriage (which we know to be invalid), the Secretary General of the Society responded as follows:

On behalf of His Grace Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre I thank you for your letter of July 23, to which he has given due attention. His Grace thinks that in spite of all, one should adhere to the decision taken by the Church. Although one may deplore that the Church declares marriages invalid too easily nowadays, we cannot affirm in a special case, without any serious reason, that a declaration of invalidity is not valid. Thus you may go on receiving the sacraments and have a Christian family life.

Since no investigation was made by Your Grace or by the Secretary General, and since no grounds for the conciliar annulment were mentioned in the original letter of inquiry, the meaning is clear both from the words and the context. And that meaning is that presumption is to be given in favor of the Conciliar Church's annulments until the contrary is proved. This is a tragic error, for the Conciliar Church has proved its contempt for the sacrament of Matrimony by its actions. Before the world the Church is held up to ridicule because of the annulment practices of the Conciliar Church, which are more contemptible than the actions taken against marriage by secular tribunals. The policy of the Society must be to presume the invalidity of all the Conciliar Church's annulments until it is proved by traditional Catholic standards that the marriage annulled was clearly invalid from the beginning. To deal with such serious and sacred things in any other manner attacks the sacrament, makes light of one of the most serious and involved processes of the Church, poses a danger to present marriages, is a scandal to people who suffer much because of their respect for the sacrament and most especially is a mockery of those who have lived out their lives in perfect chastity in loyalty to the doctrine of the indissolubility of Christian marriage.

But this concern was "evil".

It looks like he is just following what the Nine said ABL's new policy was in 1983:

The Society has recently enunciated a general policy whereby it would presume the validity of the new Church annulments without investigation. The only outcome of following such a policy will be serious public scandal, grave damage to family life and complicity with the new Church in its attack on the holy sacrament of Matrimony. In answer to an inquiry from a layman concerning the status of his second marriage (which we know to be invalid), the Secretary General of the Society responded as follows:

On behalf of His Grace Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre I thank you for your letter of July 23, to which he has given due attention. His Grace thinks that in spite of all, one should adhere to the decision taken by the Church. Although one may deplore that the Church declares marriages invalid too easily nowadays, we cannot affirm in a special case, without any serious reason, that a declaration of invalidity is not valid. Thus you may go on receiving the sacraments and have a Christian family life.

Since no investigation was made by Your Grace or by the Secretary General, and since no grounds for the conciliar annulment were mentioned in the original letter of inquiry, the meaning is clear both from the words and the context. And that meaning is that presumption is to be given in favor of the Conciliar Church's annulments until the contrary is proved. This is a tragic error, for the Conciliar Church has proved its contempt for the sacrament of Matrimony by its actions. Before the world the Church is held up to ridicule because of the annulment practices of the Conciliar Church, which are more contemptible than the actions taken against marriage by secular tribunals. The policy of the Society must be to presume the invalidity of all the Conciliar Church's annulments until it is proved by traditional Catholic standards that the marriage annulled was clearly invalid from the beginning. To deal with such serious and sacred things in any other manner attacks the sacrament, makes light of one of the most serious and involved processes of the Church, poses a danger to present marriages, is a scandal to people who suffer much because of their respect for the sacrament and most especially is a mockery of those who have lived out their lives in perfect chastity in loyalty to the doctrine of the indissolubility of Christian marriage.

But this concern was "evil".

One of the last conversations I had with Father Collins was about his puzzlement, that if and when we obtained a true pope, how it was humanly possible for him (the pope) to straighten out this universal marriage mess.