Author Topic: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid? (Read 2208 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #100 on:** **Today** at 10:49:04 AM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 10:43:39 AM

I would be interested to see your sources saying that Episcopal Consecration supplying for an invalid Ordination is the majority opinion (you have said the same in the past)

At the very least, why do you not apply the same "safer course" standard to this as you do to +Thuc? The fact that the issue is at the very least disputed does your position no favor

Exactly. Tom is horribly biased and not consistent at all.

Mr G · « **Reply #101 on:** **Today** at 10:51:23 AM »

Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 10:24:35 AM

Lol. Sneaky.

You're well able to make pronouncements yourself.

But when it comes to something you don't like, its... "call the priest"

Bishop Williamson and Fr. Chazal say Thuc's consecration are valid, so find two other Resistance clergy that have evidence showing they are not. So far, all you give is your interpretations of Sacramental Theology. If your conclusions are obviously correct, then you should have no issues finding many Traditional priests backing up your claim.

WorldsAway · « **Reply #102 on:** **Today** at 10:54:38 AM »

Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 10:28:52 AM

In our case though, as one poster pointed out, the accusation the Lienart was a Mason are probably utter nonsense. Very different in quality to the evident mental instability of Thuc.

"Probably utter nonsense"? Do you think that is the right way to approach the subject? How can you say it is "very different in quality" if you seemingly have not even investigated the +Liénart accusation? (see: "Probably")

Have you looked into +Lefebvre *allegedly* stating that he knew +Liénart to have been a Freemason?

These are the relevant excerpts from the *alleged* speeches:

Quote

[In] the first day of the Council, Cardinal Liénart was the chief of all of the liberals in the Council… in Rome, the published the photo of Cardinal Liénart in the review Chiesa Viva, Chiesa Viva, it’s a traditionalist review, a good review, in Rome, that published the picture with all, all the appurtenances Freemasonic, the day of his inscription in the Freemasonians, the day of the 20th degree, and after the 30th degree of Masonry, and the place where he stood admitting of Masons, the chief of the liberal Cardinals of the Council. That is my Cardinal, he gave me the ordination of the priesthood and the consecration as bishop. He is my Cardinal. I am, I am, I burn in his legacy. And now it is published, it is public, nobody can answer to this publication.”

5/11/76 Minneapolis

Quote

Two months ago in Rome, the traditionalist periodical Chiesa Viva, published — I have seen it in Rome with my own eyes — on the back side of the cover, the photograph of Cardinal Liénart with all his Masonic paraphernalia, the day of the date of his inscription in Masonry, the grade to which he belonged, then the date at which he rose to the 20th, then to the 30th degree of Masonry, attached to this lodge, to that lodge, at this place, at that place. Meanwhile, about two or three months after this publication was made, I heard nothing about any reaction, or any contradiction. Now, unfortunately, I must say to you that this Cardinal Liénart is my bishop, it is he who ordained me a priest, it is he who consecrated me a bishop. I cannot help it... Fortunately, the orders are valid... But, in spite of it, it was very painful for me to be informed of it.”

5/27/76 Montreal

http://bishopjosephmarie.org/doctrine/invalidorders.html

Does anyone know if the full speeches can be found anywhere?

WorldsAway · « **Reply #103 on:** **Today** at 11:15:40 AM »

Quote from: Twice dyed on Today at 09:42:26 AM

I am really quite ignorant about this topic. Are you saying that only one bishop ordained Marcel Lefebvre?... which is probably the norm. But then, why do other priests normally impose their hands on the newly ordained priest? Isn't that to ensure that apostolic succession is guaranteed? I never really thought much about this topic of our founder.

Re: +Lienart...Aren't those two references May 11, May 27 1976 readily available to listen to? "allegedly" could be verified and determined as fact, and further discussion can move on...

AI Overview

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was consecrated a bishop on September 18, 1947, in Tourcoing, France, by Cardinal Achille Liénart, the Bishop of Lille. The co-consecrators for the ceremony were Bishops Jean-Baptiste Fauret and Alfred-Jean-Félix Ancel.
****************
The episcopy is the Fullness of the Priesthood, but I appreciate your doubts. All this must have been scrutinized decades ago, no?

I'd like to make clear that I do not doubt the orders of +Lefebvre or his line. It's not my intention to cast doubt on either, but to show that Tom is not applying his "standards" in an impartial manner.

Regarding priests imposing hands at ordinations..that is not essential to, and in no way affects, the validity of the sacrament. Pius XII taught that it is the bishops imposition of hands that is required for validity

Stubborn · « **Reply #104 on:** **Today** at 11:22:48 AM »

Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 09:11:38 AM

You're talking abotu Novus Ordo people. Whereas I am talking about the opinions of trad Catholics.

Believing Thuc withheld intention is very credible considering he recanted of his traditionalism and there are photos of him in celebrating the Novus Ordo. Do you want me to repost those?

So enough with the smugness. We have had enough of it.

Nice try, but no, I am talking strictly about the early trads.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid? (Read 2208 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?

Mr G

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?

WorldsAway

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?

WorldsAway

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?

Stubborn

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?