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Author Topic: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?  (Read 4020 times)

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2026, 11:07:57 AM »
It truly is ridiculous to doubt the validity of the Thuc consecrations.  I have in my files somewhere an original letter written by Abp. Thuc himself written in Latin in attestation of the fact that he had done the consecrations.  For heaven's sake, Fr. Gerard des Laurier was a canon lawyer to Pius XII.  Am I supposed to believe that he is going to run off and get consecrated by some man who does not have his wits?

Here is the problem with consecrations:  Let us say that bishop A consecrates bishops B,C,D,and E.  But let us say that bishop D runs off and becomes a liberal and consecrates bishop F, who is also a liberal.  Now people will heap all kinds of opprobrium on bishop A because he consecrated some guy who went haywire. It is terribly emotional and illogical to questions bishops A,B,C and E because bishop D does something crazy. At some point perhaps the lineage of bishop D does become suspect, but this does not call into question the aforementioned bishops.

Here is a statement that Bishop Moises Carmona gave of his own episcopal consecration:  Bing Videos In the case of Abp. Vigano referring to the current NO hierarchy as "my brother bishops," I would never do such a thing.  These NO bishops are all of them, to a man, consecrated with the new forms of consecration.  All of their orders can and should be legitimately called into doubt. At most I would say to them, "My brother bishops, if brothers you be, you have, all of you, partaken of the new orders, the New Mass, the Revolution.  We traditional Catholics must call into question your orders..."  Abp. Vigano is just not there yet.  We must pray for him.


You're a smart man. I'm surprised you are following this issue with such lack of care in your reading.

The issue is potential doubt. For his withholding intention. It cannot be established with certainty that the withholding of intention for the Palmarians was also applied in the other situations where he consecrated.

We just cannot know any longer.

Therefore we must take the prudent path when it comes to the validity of the Sacraments and conditionally ordain and consecrate the 400 bishops of the Thuc line. 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2026, 12:32:47 PM »
The issue is potential bad intention.
Canon law DOES NOT ALLOW ONE TO AVOID SACRAMENTS BASED ON POTENTIAL. 

A potentially bad intention is not based in reality.  You are not allowed to act based on potentials.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2026, 12:36:25 PM »

You're a smart man. I'm surprised you are following this issue with such lack of care in your reading.

The issue is potential doubt. For his withholding intention. It cannot be established with certainty that the withholding of intention for the Palmarians was also applied in the other situations where he consecrated.
It doesn't work this way.  You cannot claim a doubt without some evidence. 

Yes, we do have certainty regarding the sacraments because ...a) the proper matter/form were used and b) the witnesses in the ceremony did not notice anything out of sorts.  This is called moral certainty.  It's judging based on the exterior.  When a cleric "does what the Church intends" (i.e. performs the sacrament properly), then THE SACRAMENT IS PRESUMED TO BE VALID.  Case closed.

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2026, 01:28:41 PM »

You're a smart man. I'm surprised you are following this issue with such lack of care in your reading.

The issue is potential doubt. For his withholding intention. It cannot be established with certainty that the withholding of intention for the Palmarians was also applied in the other situations where he consecrated.

We just cannot know any longer.

Therefore we must take the prudent path when it comes to the validity of the Sacraments and conditionally ordain and consecrate the 400 bishops of the Thuc line.
Have you discussed this issue with your Priest? Ask a Priests who studied Sacramental Theology in depth and see what he says about the validity of the Thuc consecrations. 

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2026, 01:30:54 PM »
It's never been established that Archbishop Thuc withheld his intention for the Palmerians.  That claim stems mainly from the 1982 Angelus article, which says he published a letter soon after saying this.  However, the letter he wrote soon after in which he renounces his actions with the Palmerians, is referenced by the Vatican in a commentary in the decree of excommunication, and says nothing about withholding intention. No letter with him saying this has ever been produced, and it appears that the Angelus article exaggerated the statements made in his letter to Archbishop of Seville (L’Osservatore Romano, Sept. 17, 1976). Thuc-line critics have later claimed that such evidence was on private tapes, but those also have never been produced.  The claim that he ever said he simulated sacraments is unverified hearsay, likely stemming from an exaggeration in the Angelus article.