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Author Topic: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?  (Read 2167 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #110 on: Today at 11:53:27 AM »
No trying. You were talking about trads who were clearly very weak and didn't understand their Church history.
No, I am talking about the pioneering trads who knew their faith and through all the chaos and confusion kept the faith while their Church and all that was holy was taken over by her enemies and totally defiled.

You are one who is talking like you are very weak in the faith and do not understand Church history because unless there is obvious, credible evidence to the contrary, the Church always presumes validity of her sacraments - that is how she has defended and preserved her sacraments for 2000 years.

 What you are doing is presuming invalidity based on (ridiculous) hearsay - if the Church did that, she would have defended and preserved what in fact amounts to defending and preserving nothing at all - which is exactly what you are doing - which is in fact, ridiculous. 
 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #111 on: Today at 12:05:51 PM »
Yes it is a he said she said thing. But if the allegations are not spurious, then they must be taken seriously.

It's how all investigations begin.
:facepalm:  The allegation is neither believed or disbelieved based on how "shocking" it is.  All allegations are considered FALSE, until proven.  "Innocent until proven guilty" remember?  That's a basic principle of law.

For the 301st time....THE INVESTIGATION HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE. 
-- ALL WITNESSES HAVE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THE CONSECRATIONS.  THEY'VE ALL BEEN INTERVIEWED. 
-- NONE OF THE EYEWITNESSES SAY THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH +THUC'S ACTIONS OR MENTAL STATE.

Go re-read Fr Chekada's article.

Back to canon law...you say there needs to be an investigation...THIS IS THE SAME AS SAYING THAT THERE'S NEGATIVE DOUBT (i.e. no proof...yet).  You cannot avoid sacraments or consider them invalid based on negative doubt.  Negative doubt is an opinion, or an allegation.

The allegation could've been a lie.
The investigation could turn up nothing.

You're just assuming that the allegation is true.  This the definition of calumny.  


Online Twice dyed

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Msgr M. Lefebvre May 11, 1976 , May 27, 1976 Montreal conference
« Reply #112 on: Today at 12:51:10 PM »
Quote from: WorldsAway 3/12/2026, 9:54:38 AM
""...

Have you looked into +Lefebvre *allegedly* stating that he knew +Liénart to have been a Freemason?

These are the relevant excerpts from the *alleged* speeches:

...
Does anyone know if the full speeches can be found anywhere?
https://truerestoration.org/season-3-from-the-pulpit-episode-16-archbishop-lefebvres-1976-conference/

"...As we begin Season 3 of From the Pulpit, it is with great pleasure that we release a long forgotten conference given in English, from His Grace, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (1905-1991) given on May 11, 1976 in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

In this conference, His Grace lays out the modernist heresy, its origins and the beliefs of modernists which are contradictory to Roman Catholicism and in its very essence, a movement to establish a false religion rooted in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ..."

1 hour plus audio.  ENGLISH !!
______________________________

Here is the French original transcript of the Montreal May 27, 1976...



  1:30 minutes duration Audio only.
Excerpt:

    "...Or voyez-vous, il y a eu donc cette ambiance dans le Concile qui fait, qu’il n’y a pas eu de résistance à cette influence moderniste qui s’est exercée par un groupe de cardinaux en particulier, qui étaient commandés, qui étaient dirigés en quelques sortes par le cardinal Liénart. Or, il y a deux mois à Rome, dans la brochure “Quiesa Viva” qui est une brochure traditionaliste, cette brochure a publié, je l’ai vu de mes yeux à Rome, a publié au dos de la couverture la photographie du cardinal Liénart, avec toutes  ses appartenances maçonniques. Le jour de la date de son inscription à la maçonnerie, le degré auquel il appartenait à la maçonnerie à telle date, le degré ensuite auquel il est monté, vingtième degré, puis trentième degré de la maçonnerie, attaché à telle loge, telle loge, tel endroit, tel endroit; et je n’ai pas entendu dire que depuis environ deux mois où trois mois que cette publication a été faite, qu’il n’y ait eu aucune réaction. Aucune contradiction. Or malheureusement je dois vous dire ce cardinal Liénart c’est mon évêque. C’est lui qui m’a ordonné prêtre, c’est lui qui m’a sacré évêque. Je n’en peux rien, heureusement que les ordres qu’ils donnent sont valides, mais c’est tout de même avec beaucoup de peine que j’ai appris cela.

            Mais c’est ce qui nous explique, le cardinal Liénart est mort depuis trois où quatre ans, que le cardinal Liénart ait été le chef du groupe des cardinaux libéraux pendant le Concile. Et ces cardinaux libéraux vous les connaissez aussi bien que moi. Les cardinaux libéraux, ce sont tous les cardinaux des bords du Rhin. Ils ont d’abord fondé une alliance Européenne, ils l’ont appelé “ alliance Européenne ”, le cardinal Alfrink, le cardinal Frings, le cardinal Höffner, le cardinal Liénart, le cardinal Gerbier, le cardinal König n’est-ce pas, ont fondé une association, et les théologiens qui les aidaient, les experts ont fondé cette revue qui s’appelle L’I.D.O.C. qui était diffusée énormément pendant le Concile, et qui a fait des pressions sur tous les pères. Nous recevions chaque jour, dans nos boîtes aux lettres des pères conciliaires, dans nos hôtels, une quantité de papier venant de cette organisation I.D.O.C. qui existe encore, et qui est tout à fait, tout à fait moderniste. ..."

Part of this is in a post above.,,translated in English
*************
Maybe you can play the French YTube, try to get English captions...

Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #113 on: Today at 02:47:47 PM »

Except there is a second layer here involved.

It MAY be the case that priesthood is not conferred on an invalid priest, ON TOP of the allegation of the freemasonic membership.

Whereas Thuc was MANIFESTLY not well, who repented of his traditionalism (aka catholicism), and for whom therefore the allegation is credible.

On the balance of probablities people are far safer with the Lefebvre line than with Thuc.


You sedes are truly, utterly stupid people.
So, you are not a sedevacantist?

That means, you recognize actual polytheists as popes. You also think that JP-II the apostate who kissed the Quran and prayed false idols in public is a "Saint". You are also in communion with Satan himself.

You claim that Francis, who helped cover up the child rapes committed by Theodore McCarrick, is a pope.

You have the gall to call others stupid?

I don't think you are stupid, I think you are evil incarnate. Such shamelessness, such disgusting behaviour, do not come from God. They come from your true master. 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there evidence that +Thuc ordinations are invalid?
« Reply #114 on: Today at 02:54:28 PM »
So, you are not a sedevacantist? 
Right.  Seems that Tom is an anti-Sede.  Now it all makes sense.  His overly-emotional view on +Thuc is driven by his overly-emotional rejection of sedes.