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Author Topic: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?  (Read 16091 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2019, 12:57:28 PM »
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    • Besides that, Xavier, it's been established that you are not even, in fact, a Traditional Catholic.  You have been unable to articulate any principled difference between FSSP and SSPX, stating that your opting for SSPX has to do only with the size and quality of their organization.  That shallow a reason renders you a schismatic for continuing to cling to a group that is not in full communion with the Catholic hierarchy.  So most of us here on CI are not particularly interested in what you have to say ... any more than we're interested in the ramblings of poche
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #16 on: September 17, 2019, 01:06:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 17, 2019, 12:57:28 PM
    Besides that, Xavier, it's been established that you are not even, in fact, a Traditional Catholic.  You have been unable to articulate any principled difference between FSSP and SSPX, stating that your opting for SSPX has to do only with the size and quality of their organization.  That shallow a reason renders you a schismatic for continuing to cling to a group that is not in full communion with the Catholic hierarchy.  So most of us here on CI are not particularly interested in what you have to say ... any more than we're interested in the ramblings of poche
    :laugh1:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #17 on: September 17, 2019, 01:12:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on September 17, 2019, 08:25:28 AM
    “Stick to your guns. Always stick to your guns.” This means: Keep your hands on your revolvers. Hold them firmly. In other words: “Defend yourselves. Always. And refuse to compromise in these matters that do not really pertain to the substance of the faith: religious liberty, ecuмenism, dialogue with non-Christian religions. There are many of us in the hierarchy who think and believe in what you are doing about these questions.” It is a bishop who wrote that to me. He does not write “I”, he writes that there are many of “us”. He wrote other things too that I dare not read to you, they are so laudatory ... “Come to our aid.” And also: “Do not let go of anything, continue like this, we need it!” This is new! There was nothing like this before! The bishops used to tell us: obviously there are problems, but at the end of the day.... And here they are telling us: “Resist, we need it!” Actually they do not speak too loud because they know very well that if they do, they will be cutting off their own heads ... I am not telling you their names because we do not want to burn out these prelates, but there are several of them.

    I'm glad that you are saying something about the problem of sedeism, because it is a BIG problem in tradition. Good luck trying to get through to them, though (sedes). Most of them are too far gone. Here in the U.S., individualism is rampant, and sedeism is an extreme form of individualism.

    However, IMO,....it's not a good idea to make a case, as you do in the above post, that the SSPX either will or does somehow boldly stand for Truth, and as such, clergy in the conciliar church are counting on them to stand for Truth. The SSPX does no such thing now, except in a mild manner. For example, there are no articles on the DICI website that I can find which address the serious problems with the Amazon synod. In fact, the articles on DICI are quite tame, and hardly reflect the strong stance of +ABL on the Crisis in the Church.

    The conciliar bishops who want a change for the better (in the conciliar church) are going to be very much let down by the SSPX when the SSPX does reconcile. The leadership of the SSPX are traitors to the cause of +ABL. They are not at all about standing for Truth.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #18 on: September 17, 2019, 01:20:45 PM »
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    But Lefebvre never claimed the modernists had no jurisdiction.

    A church in which there is no hierarchy exercising ordinary jurisdiction (ecclesiavacante) is no church at all.
    Orthodoxy and the Faith are far more important aspects of the Church than jurisdiction.  St Athanasius had no jurisdiction during Arianism and in the first 300 years, you could argue that the Church functioned without jurisdiction because She operated out of necessity and not with any consistent government.  The main purpose of the Church is not her (human goals) governmental/jurisdictional office but the teaching/protecting of the Faith (Divine goals).  Ergo, those Trad Bishops who are orthodox are the Church.  The modernists, even if they have jurisdiction (in a human sense) have no spiritual jurisdiction because they don't teach 100% Truth.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #19 on: September 17, 2019, 01:25:45 PM »
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    Bishop McKenna and Bishop Slupski never had ordinary jurisdiction as bishops. When you write “Orthodoxy and validity are far more important than jurisdiction”, this is incorrect because jurisdiction is a always needed in the sacrament of penance, whether supplied or ordinary, for validity. 
    Jurisdiction is a human/canon law invention.  All valid, non-excommunicated, non-schismatic bishops have the charge, from Christ Himself, to "go and teach all nations".  The sacrament of penance needs jurisdiction in normal times; but we are living in emergency times, and canon law allows exceptions for the salvation of the faithful.
    .
    The V2 bishops do not have the full faith, ergo, their jurisdiction is compromised by other canon law penalties which they incur upon themselves for their non-orthodoxy...whether they know it or not (and many of them know it, because they are revolutionaries).  As St Athanasius said, "They have the churches, but we have the Faith!"
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #20 on: September 17, 2019, 02:11:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 17, 2019, 12:57:28 PM
    Besides that, Xavier, it's been established that you are not even, in fact, a Traditional Catholic.

    I think Xav is a good poster, and you know I also think you are a good poster. He is a traditional Catholic in my book. I guess I paint with a broader brush.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #21 on: September 17, 2019, 02:22:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 17, 2019, 12:57:28 PM
    Besides that, Xavier, it's been established that you are not even, in fact, a Traditional Catholic. 

    Pray tell, how does one establish whether one is a "Traditional Catholic" or not?
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #22 on: September 17, 2019, 02:24:03 PM »
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    • Matto,
    V2 and the new mass are contrary to Tradition.  Xavier accepts V2 and the new mass (by way of accepting the indult, at the very least).  Therefore he is not a Traditionalist.  
    .
    If one can save their soul in spite of accepting V2 and the new mass, then Traditionalism is schismatic and all Trads will go to hell for their grave disobedience. 
    .
    But you can’t have one foot “under new-rome” and one foot with Tradition.  You cannot serve God and mammon. 
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #23 on: September 17, 2019, 02:25:54 PM »
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    • Traditionalism started post V2.  If you don’t reject V2 and the new mass then you aren’t a Trad.  It’s that simple. 
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    Offline Jews Did 911

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #24 on: September 17, 2019, 02:53:23 PM »
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    Quote from: Pax Vobis on Tue Sep 17 2019 13:20:45 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)
    Orthodoxy and the Faith are far more important aspects of the Church than jurisdiction.  St Athanasius had no jurisdiction during Arianism and in the first 300 years, you could argue that the Church functioned without jurisdiction because She operated out of necessity and not with any consistent government.  The main purpose of the Church is not her (human goals) governmental/jurisdictional office but the teaching/protecting of the Faith (Divine goals).  Ergo, those Trad Bishops who are orthodox are the Church.  The modernists, even if they have jurisdiction (in a human sense) have no spiritual jurisdiction because they don't teach 100% Truth.

    Quote
    Jurisdiction is a human/canon law invention.  All valid, non-excommunicated, non-schismatic bishops have the charge, from Christ Himself, to "go and teach all nations".  The sacrament of penance needs jurisdiction in normal times; but we are living in emergency times, and canon law allows exceptions for the salvation of the faithful.
    .
    The V2 bishops do not have the full faith, ergo, their jurisdiction is compromised by other canon law penalties which they incur upon themselves for their non-orthodoxy...whether they know it or not (and many of them know it, because they are revolutionaries).  As St Athanasius said, "They have the churches, but we have the Faith!"

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    And the Lord said to me: A conspiracy is found among the men of Juda, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They are returned to the former iniquities of their fathers, who refused to hear my words: so these likewise have gone after strange gods, to serve them: [...]
    - Jeremias 11:9-15

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #25 on: September 17, 2019, 03:41:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 17, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
    Jurisdiction is a human/canon law invention.  All valid, non-excommunicated, non-schismatic bishops have the charge, from Christ Himself, to "go and teach all nations".  The sacrament of penance needs jurisdiction in normal times; but we are living in emergency times, and canon law allows exceptions for the salvation of the faithful.

    Pax, that's not right.  Jurisdiction is the authority to teach, govern and sanctify.  It was conferred upon the Apostles by Christ when he said: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world,” (Mt. 28 ) not when He consecrated them bishops on Holy Thursday (a few months earlier).
     
    So too today, this three-fold authority does not come to a bishop by means of a valid consecration.   They receive it by legitimate appointment by the pope, and only by appointment from the Pope (as Pius XII teaching in three encyclicals).

    Any validly ordained bishop who has not been legitimately appointed by a Pope (directly or indirectly), has no authority to teach and govern, although in cases of necessity the Church does supply the authority needed to sanctify (e.g. supplied jurisdiction for confession).
     
    Now, the Church must possess a hierarchy of bishops with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, since this is necessary for the Church to carry out her mission.  Without a true hierarchy, the Church, as Christ founded it, does not exist.  Similarly, without a true hierarchy (bishops who were appointed by a Pope), the Church lacks the mark of Apostolicity, which the true Church must always possess.  That's what Xavier was getting at.

    No traditional bishop today has ordinary jurisdiction, nor does any claim to have it.  Therefore, they are not part of the hierarchy, or “lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments.”  
     
    Council of Trent, Session XXIII, CANON VI. "If any one saith, that bishops … who have neither been rightly [legally] ordained, nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema."
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #26 on: September 17, 2019, 04:10:09 PM »
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    Pax, that's not right.  Jurisdiction is the authority to teach, govern and sanctify.  It was conferred upon the Apostles by Christ when he said: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world,” (Mt. 28 ) not when He consecrated them bishops on Holy Thursday (a few months earlier).
    I'm not a canon lawyer, but I see jurisdiction as a Church invention, therefore its rules can be excepted (as canon law does make exceptions).  On the contrary, a Bishop's charge to teach, govern, sanctify is of DIVINE invention, therefore this is of the essence of the office.  I see jurisdiction as simply a necessary (and important) governmental matter, which gives to the Bishops the TERRITORY in which to teach, govern, sanctify.  Jurisdiction is both a permission and a parameter in which to work.  But the work itself (teach, govern, sanctify) is part of the sacrament/Divine charge.

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    So too today, this three-fold authority does not come to a bishop by means of a valid consecration.   They receive it by legitimate appointment by the pope, and only by appointment from the Pope (as Pius XII teaching in three encyclicals).
    I wouldn't define these 3 powers as an "authority" but as part of the sacramental grace/character.  The grace of the sacrament is different from jurisdiction/authority because an excommunicated priest/bishop has no jurisdiction but he can still provide confession (I.e. he has the validity and power to provide sacraments) in danger of death.

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    Any validly ordained bishop who has not been legitimately appointed by a Pope (directly or indirectly), has no authority to teach and govern, although in cases of necessity the Church does supply the authority needed to sanctify (e.g. supplied jurisdiction for confession).
    Correct.  But the Church only supplies the legal framework for the cleric to act; She provides the full office/validity/grace of the sacrament FOREVER, once the ordination/consecration is complete.

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    Now, the Church must possess a hierarchy of bishops with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, since this is necessary for the Church to carry out her mission.  Without a true hierarchy, the Church, as Christ founded it, does not exist.  Similarly, without a true hierarchy (bishops who were appointed by a Pope), the Church lacks the mark of Apostolicity, which the true Church must always possess.  That's what Xavier was getting at.
    True, but if a priest/bishop is validly and legally ordained/consecrated then they have the authority to teach, govern, sanctify in potentia.  The idea of jurisdiction is simply the "details" of where to carry out the 3-fold powers.

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    No traditional bishop today has ordinary jurisdiction, nor does any claim to have it.  Therefore, they are not part of the hierarchy, or “lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments.”  
    All Trad clerics are part of the hierarchy, in the sense that they are validly ordained and that canon law allows them to preach the Faith, provide sacraments, mass and doctrine, under the emergency canons.  Everyone agrees they don't have proper jurisdiction, because the Church is in a state of persecution/confusion and the jurisdiction rules are in disarray.  I do believe they are "lawful ministers" because canon law provides them to operate legally, therefore their activities are "lawful".

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    Council of Trent, Session XXIII, CANON VI. "If any one saith, that bishops … who have neither been rightly [legally] ordained, nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema."

    I disagree with your interpretation above, and I say that "rightly" means "validly" because the second part of the sentence, which deals with "ecclesiastical and canonical power" deals with legality, not the first part.
    .
    Now all Trad clerics have been rightly/validly ordained/consecrated so they have the 3-fold sacramental duty to carry out.  The only question is, where to carry out this mission?  In normal times, the Church would give them a diocese.  Since we aren't in normal times, canon law allows them to provide the sacraments when the faithful asks them for assistance and in cases of death.  Therefore, their providing such is lawful, which makes them "lawful ministers."
    .
    This canon does not apply to any Trad cleric.  It would apply to schismatics or to doubtfully ordained clerics.
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    Offline Syracuse

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #27 on: September 17, 2019, 04:21:25 PM »
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    Council of Trent, Session XXIII, CANON VI. "If any one saith, that bishops … who have neither been rightly [legally] ordained, nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema."

    That applies to ordinary times, not a crisis/emergency in which we all now live.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #28 on: September 17, 2019, 04:24:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 17, 2019, 02:24:03 PM
    If one can save their soul in spite of accepting V2 and the new mass, then Traditionalism is schismatic and all Trads will go to hell for their grave disobedience.

    I have a different definition at the moment. I consider anyone who holds the true faith to be a traditional Catholic. I think some in the Novus Ordo and some in all the different kinds of trad chapels have the faith and are thus traditional Catholics. I oppose them to the modernists, the spirit of Vatican II types who have never read Vatican II but who use it as justification to believe in all their heresies because they hate God and His Holy Church. Wait, do you really think it is impossible to save your soul if you accept the New Mass and Vatican II? That is basically all 1.5 Billion Catholics minus a few tens of thousands of sedevacantists and hard-line resistance and SSPXers. I think you in drawing your line in the sand have become a borderline schismatic, though I am sure you mean well. Most people just accept Vatican II because they were told to and believe it is good and know little to nothing about it and never read it, but they accept it. And most people accept the New Mass even if they don't go to it because they believe it came from the Church so therefore it must be acceptable.

    Even Bishop Williamson kind of accepts the New Mass as he famously allowed that confused old woman to attend it under certain conditions, which he was crucified for. So he must accept it to some degree or other.
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    Offline Syracuse

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #29 on: September 17, 2019, 04:31:18 PM »
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    If one can save their soul in spite of accepting V2 and the new mass, then Traditionalism is schismatic and all Trads will go to hell for their grave disobedience.

    Not really because Vatican II essentially teaches people from any religion or atheism can be saved, so that logically would include schismatics & the disobedient who mean well and obey their conscience.

    That's what Vatican II is about in many ways....meaning well & obeying your conscience. It's not about the love for God and His Truth.
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