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Author Topic: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?  (Read 16067 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2019, 05:28:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on September 17, 2019, 03:41:38 PM
    Pax, that's not right.  Jurisdiction is the authority to teach, govern and sanctify.  It was conferred upon the Apostles by Christ when he said: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world,” (Mt. 28 ) not when He consecrated them bishops on Holy Thursday (a few months earlier).
     
    So too today, this three-fold authority does not come to a bishop by means of a valid consecration.   They receive it by legitimate appointment by the pope, and only by appointment from the Pope (as Pius XII teaching in three encyclicals).

    Any validly ordained bishop who has not been legitimately appointed by a Pope (directly or indirectly), has no authority to teach and govern, although in cases of necessity the Church does supply the authority needed to sanctify (e.g. supplied jurisdiction for confession).
     
    Now, the Church must possess a hierarchy of bishops with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify, since this is necessary for the Church to carry out her mission.  Without a true hierarchy, the Church, as Christ founded it, does not exist.  Similarly, without a true hierarchy (bishops who were appointed by a Pope), the Church lacks the mark of Apostolicity, which the true Church must always possess.  That's what Xavier was getting at.

    No traditional bishop today has ordinary jurisdiction, nor does any claim to have it.  Therefore, they are not part of the hierarchy, or “lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments.”  
     
    Council of Trent, Session XXIII, CANON VI. "If any one saith, that bishops … who have neither been rightly [legally] ordained, nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema."
    So where is the "true hierarchy"?  Among the heretics of the "conciliar church"?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #31 on: September 17, 2019, 07:33:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on September 17, 2019, 02:22:35 PM
    Pray tell, how does one establish whether one is a "Traditional Catholic" or not?

    I agree with the definition Matthew gave here some time ago.  Having a liturgical preference does not suffice.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #32 on: September 17, 2019, 07:40:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on September 17, 2019, 04:24:26 PM
    I have a different definition at the moment. I consider anyone who holds the true faith to be a traditional Catholic. I think some in the Novus Ordo and some in all the different kinds of trad chapels have the faith and are thus traditional Catholics.

    I disagree.  Those who hold the faith are Catholics, but not necessarily Traditional ones.  To refer to those in the Novus Ordo who still have Catholic faith as Traditional Catholic renders the qualifier meaningless.  You have to AT LEAST require that they attend the Tridentine Mass.

    But I agree with the definition that those who merely do so because it's a preference, because they like it, rather than out of principle, are not Traditional Catholics in any meaningful way.

    At the very least, a Traditional Catholic has to uphold in principle that the Tridentine Mass is superior to and more Catholic than the Novus Ordo.  That is the weakest, most watered down sense of the term that's even the least bit meaningful.

    But most would agree that to be a true Traditional Catholic one would have to view the new changes to be defective and harmful.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #33 on: September 17, 2019, 07:48:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Syracuse on September 17, 2019, 04:31:18 PM
    Not really because Vatican II essentially teaches people from any religion or atheism can be saved, so that logically would include schismatics & the disobedient who mean well and obey their conscience.

    He's speaking objectively, and he is correct.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #34 on: September 17, 2019, 08:09:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 17, 2019, 07:33:26 PM
    I agree with the definition Matthew gave here some time ago.  Having a liturgical preference does not suffice.

    Thanks, but I don't know what that is.  I've tried the search function to no avail.  And expecting me to go through his 23,000+ posts seems to be a bridge too far.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #35 on: September 17, 2019, 11:40:33 PM »
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    • Sedevacantism doesn’t depend on the PIus XII appointed bishops.  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #36 on: September 18, 2019, 05:54:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 17, 2019, 05:28:07 PM
    So where is the "true hierarchy"?  Among the heretics of the "conciliar church"?
    Although I think "legitimate hierarchy" is the correct way to say that, yes, the legitimate hierarchy is among the heretics of the conciliar church. This short snip explains clearly the principles discussed in the book, which I won't post due to it being too lengthy for this format. It's best to get the book for total clarity.

    "....it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices. "One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code...." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #37 on: September 18, 2019, 05:58:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on September 17, 2019, 11:40:33 PM
    Sedevacantism doesn’t depend on the PIus XII appointed bishops.  
    Truth^^.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #38 on: September 18, 2019, 08:24:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on September 17, 2019, 08:09:20 PM
    Thanks, but I don't know what that is.  I've tried the search function to no avail.  And expecting me to go through his 23,000+ posts seems to be a bridge too far.

    Understood.  It's also why I didn't link to it.  I have a hard time with the search function.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #39 on: September 18, 2019, 08:31:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 18, 2019, 05:54:58 AM
    Although I think "legitimate hierarchy" is the correct way to say that, yes, the legitimate hierarchy is among the heretics of the conciliar church. This short snip explains clearly the principles discussed in the book, which I won't post due to it being too lengthy for this format. It's best to get the book for total clarity.

    "....it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices. "One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code...." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

    Well, yes, but this is precisely the thinking behind sedeprivationism.  Legitimate hierarchy has its material continuity with the Catholic hierarchy before V2, but not a formal continuity.  They have formally ruptured with the Catholic hierarchy but maintain a certain material continuity.  Sedeprivationism might also be a good explanation for the language that the +Lefebvre bishops have grappled with that there are two Romes, the Eternal Rome and the Conciliar Rome, and that the Pope is the head of two Churches.  This can only happen by way of a distinction, the formal and the material.  Materially he retains the office of Eternal Rome, but formally he's acting like the head of a breakaway heretical sect.  Sedeprivationism is a theological explanation of this being the case.  Lots of R&R folks, if they sat down and thought about it, would realize how much sense sedeprivationism actually makes.  It's rooted in well-established theological distinctions and helps everything make sense ... and no one can question the brilliant mind it came from.  +Guerard des Laurier was a top-ranking pre-V2 theologican, personal Confessor to Pius XII for a time (until replaced by Bea), reportedly helped write the dogmatic declaration of the Assumption, and co-authored the Ottaviani intervention.  And the more I think about sedeprivationism, the more sense it makes.  In fact, Father Chazal of the Resistance ended up gravitating towards a position nearly identical to it after studying a series of pre-Vatican II theologians.  And it clearly resolves the "ecclesiavacantist" problem of sedevacantism ... as WELL AS the problems with R&Rism. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #40 on: September 18, 2019, 08:44:53 AM »
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    • Let's remember that the term "R&R" was not invented by those folks who hold such a viewpoint.  "R&R" is a Fr Cekada-ism; meant to be divisive, to attack, to win an argument.  It's not meant to explain the view in an unbiased and fair way.
    .
    I agree, Ladislaus, that Fr Wathen's view (and probably many others' views) are more aligned with sedeprivationism.  But many people don't know this term, or they avoid researching it because it sounds too much like a sedevacantist flavor.  Much of the sspx, including +Williamson, have been fighting sedevacantism for years (in this never ending riff with +Cekada and others), so many of the faithful have been forced to take sides and thus, those who follow the sspx or the resistance are mostly anti-sedevacantist, just as a matter of indoctrination.
    .
    The first I ever heard of sedeprivationism was on this site a few years ago.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #41 on: September 18, 2019, 09:24:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2019, 08:44:53 AM
    Let's remember that the term "R&R" was not invented by those folks who hold such a viewpoint.  "R&R" is a Fr Cekada-ism; meant to be divisive, to attack, to win an argument.  It's not meant to explain the view in an unbiased and fair way.

    Yes, I know, but it's convenient and does in fact encapsulated the position.  Recognize Legitimacy + Resist the bad stuff.  So I don't think it's such a bad term.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #42 on: September 18, 2019, 09:29:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2019, 08:44:53 AM
    But many people don't know this term, or they avoid researching it because it sounds too much like a sedevacantist flavor.  Much of the sspx, including +Williamson, have been fighting sedevacantism for years (in this never ending riff with +Cekada and others), so many of the faithful have been forced to take sides and thus, those who follow the sspx or the resistance are mostly anti-sedevacantist, just as a matter of indoctrination.

    Absolutely right.  Father Chazal ended up articulating a position that was only a whisker's breadth away from pure sedeprivationism, but when people pointed this out he recoiled in horror and immediately began issuing denials ... since it was in his mind synonymous with straight sedevacantism.  But I think it's a great balance.  I see the legitimate issues with both the classic R&R and the sedevacantist side, and sedeprivationism does a very nice job of resolving them, and finding a balance.

    When Father Chazal articulated his position, he said that the V2 popes were "quarantined" and deprived of all (formal) authority based on their open heresy.  Yet they were still the "visible" head of the Church.  Short of using the actual words "formal" and "material", this is in fact sedeprivationism.  Classic R&R holds that they do in fact have formal authority ... when they're commanding or teaching something good.  But Father Chazal said that they had categorically lost authority.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2019, 09:36:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on September 17, 2019, 11:40:33 PM
    Sedevacantism doesn’t depend on the PIus XII appointed bishops.  

    Doesn't it, though?  With straight sedevacantism, there's only one legitimately-appointed bishop left in the world, and even he might be labeled suspect of heresy due to his clinging to the Conciliar establishment.  So if there's no more non-supplied jurisdiction left in the world, that's clearly a problem.  Sedevacantists rightly contend that a lengthy vacancy does not inherently destroy the papacy.  But after a long period of time (not a fixed period by any means), all legitimate bishops would cease, and there would be an absence of legitimate authority in the Church.  That would seem to entail a defection of the Church.  It's akin to the Father Hunter argument made earlier in this thread.  It's a real problem for straight sedevacantism.  How does sedevacantism address this?  Is it the claim that the complete lack of non-supplied jurisdiction in the Church is not incompatible with the Church's indefectibility?  Many sources have been cited to the contrary.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Every Pius XII appointed Bishop dead except one - time to move on from SVism?
    « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2019, 09:39:59 AM »
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    • Being completely honest, I always defined R&R mentally as “Recognize” the govt office but “Resist” that which I’m not bound to follow.
    .
    Sedeprivationism basically says the same thing, just explains it in formal theological terms.  “Recognize” the material/govt office but “Resist” the spiritual office.  And one would resist for 2 reasons 1) the V2 popes’ spiritual authority is impaired because they are heretics, 2) even if they had spiritual authority, they don’t impose any V2 error on any catholic to believe or accept.  
    .
    That’s why R&R always made sense to me, because my interpretation of it was in sedeprivationist terms, even long before I had ever heard the sedeprivationist term.  I don’t doubt that many others think the same.  
    .
    But, to be fair to Fr Cekada, the sspx never explained R&R that way, which is problematic, and I believe their wishy-washy theology on this (their failure to call the V2 popes heretics and the failure to say that their spiritual office is impaired) has led to their current situation.  Their lack of fortitude on this (as well as failure to condemn the new mass clearly) is a sign of lukewarmness towards error.  And so, this lack of clarity is rightly corrected by Fr Cekada and others.  ...What a mess!
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