Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!  (Read 2643 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ByzCat3000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1889
  • Reputation: +500/-141
  • Gender: Male
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2019, 01:16:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    Comparing +ABL with an indult catholic is like comparing an apple to a piece of rice - they have nothing in common.  The problem with the typical indult catholic is that they have MULTIPLE and MANY unorthodox views, on many basic catholic beliefs.  The debate over BOD has a complex history.  The indult errors include the entire V2 council, the new-theology of the new mass, and the acceptance of these errors as "normal".  If...and this is a big if...the only error held by an indult'er were the BOD issue, they would still be unorthodox due to their public acceptance of the new mass, which is a requirement to attend the indult.
    OK, besides the EENS issue, what other errors does an indult Catholic necessarily hold to?
    Logged

    Offline MMagdala

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 876
    • Reputation: +342/-78
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #31 on: April 20, 2019, 02:22:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 09:46:07 PM
    Traditionalism is about MORE than the mass.  
    Much more.
    It's also about doctrine, belief (internal adherence and external profession), piety, spirituality, and living more than superficially the Traditional liturgical seasons.  
    It's about knowing WHY we believe as we do.
    It's about understanding and assenting to the fundamental superiority of the Traditional Mass, with its vertical spirituality ordered to mankind's obedient relationship to God, as His subjects.  We should know these truths well enough to be able to explain them to other Catholics and non-Catholics.
    It's about a conscious hunger and dependency on all of that, which should permeate our identity.

    Traditional Catholicism is not about a patchwork of beliefs and practices -- some from the N.O., some from Traditional Orders -- but a seamless identity.

    Simply because of age, most trads of today were poorly catechized as children and adolescents.  Those in the best position are the ones who grew up with genuine Tradition and excellent catechesis, both, and have remained traditional.  (Lots of trad-trained elderly folks are N.O.) 

    If a trad was fortunate enough to convert from outside the faith through a traditionally trained and formed priest, their catechesis is probably better than someone who went simply from the almost non-existent catechesis in the N.O. to attending the TLM, rather than actually learning about Tradition.  

    Trad priests should actually insist on examining their parishioners or flocks as to their level of knowledge, and those needing catechesis should be required to attend, under his supervision and direction.  JMO.
    Logged

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16472
    • Reputation: +4864/-1803
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #32 on: April 20, 2019, 07:08:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • We had received excellent Catholic education from Father Fahnestock and Father Kevin Robinson of SSPX.  There was plenty of reading materials available too.   (And from our beloved diocesan pastor who died recently. ). 

    Logged
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #33 on: April 20, 2019, 07:35:19 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 09:46:07 PM
    The issue of changes to schooling is separate from the changes to the Mass.  The new mass came first, and was the priority.  All else came after the new mass was already accepted.  If you were corrupted by the new mass, your Faith was already damaged (and for many, on life support), even if your schooling was mostly "normal".
    So then you admit that someone could be traditionally educated in their Catholic faith even after the promulgation of New Mass. How exactly does that help your argument at all? If anything it's the opposite, as it provides further evidence that attending the New Mass and adhering to material heresies are not inextricably linked.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 09:46:07 PM
    Traditionalism started day 1 after Vatican 2.  Many catholics of this generation left new-rome and many priests did as well, in order to preserve Tradition.  Your description above is revisionist history.  What Tolkien did, in his particular country, is of no consequence to what 1,000s of Catholics did in America to keep the Faith.
    And what exactly did those 1,000s of Catholics do? You keep falsely implying again and again that going to the new Mass means you accept abortion, gαy marriage, etc. etc. when none of those things are even teachings of the Conciliar Church, as bad as it is. A NO Catholic can likewise disagree with the Pope's ecuмenism without thinking that's a reason to not go to Mass. Whereas the largest Trad society in the world which the majority of Trad laity attends, openly teaches the most liberal form of BOD. So again, ignorance on the validity of NO does not automatically make you a material heretic, nor does being a Trad mean you're 100% orthodox. 

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 09:46:07 PM
    Traditionalism is about MORE than the mass.  Keeping the Faith is more important than the mass.  A catholic cannot attend his indult mass, where Fr X says a reverent liturgy, and ignore the fact that 2 hours later, Fr Y comes in and dances around (ON THE SAME ALTAR) and makes jokes and hands out wine and cookies.  Or worse, Fr X says both the indult AND the new mass, which is the height of hypocrisy.  This type of action is inconsistent with catholicism - you cannot accept evil to get good.  The end (having a reverent liturgy) does not justify the means (accepting the abominable new mass as the "ordinary" form).
    Now for some reason you've gone off on a tangent here and you're attacking Indults rather than NOers. NOers don't realise their Mass is invalid, and they don't consider it "wine and cookies". Arguing that they're knowingly doing evil because they "know" their Mass is invalid is ridiculous, they don't know their Mass is invalid, or else they wouldn't be attending it.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #34 on: April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    So then you admit that someone could be traditionally educated in their Catholic faith even after the promulgation of New Mass. How exactly does that help your argument at all? If anything it's the opposite, as it provides further evidence that attending the New Mass and adhering to material heresies are not inextricably linked.
    The new mass teaches a new theology; it is a protestantization of the mass; it is an abomination which is anti-Trent and anti-Catholic in its liturgy.  One can have all the schooling in the world, but if you attend the new mass (or accept it, as the indult'ers do), you are accepting error.  This acceptance, in and of itself, is a theological and doctrinal problem.


    Quote
    And what exactly did those 1,000s of Catholics do?

    ??  There's plenty of books out there which related the history of Traditionalists in the 60s and 70s.  How they left their diocese (or rather, most of them were kicked out of their churches for challenging the priests and bishops and causing "disruptions".)  They left the new religion and found priests who did the same.  They had masses in hotels, basements and garages.  They slowly grew in organization until they eventually bought chapels and then started schools.  Once +ABL consecrated the 4 bishops in the mid 80s and there was a growth of priests, the sspx helped to spread the faith and say mass at these chapels that were started by catholics in the 70s.  Those of the 60s, 70s and early 80s laid the groundwork for Traditionalism as we see it today.


    Quote
    You keep falsely implying again and again that going to the new Mass means you accept abortion, gαy marriage, etc. etc. when none of those things are even teachings of the Conciliar Church, as bad as it is.
    Your view of the indult mass is very myopic.  The new-bishops do not have the faith; new-rome does not have the faith; most new-priests do not have the faith; even most indult-priests do not have the FULL faith.  You seem to think that one can attend the indult mass for 2 hrs on sunday and not be affected by all the other unorthodox, scandalous, blasphemous, heretical ideals, people, priests and information that engulfs a diocese the other 166 hours of the week.  Are you denying that new-rome promotes a gαy-friendly atmosphere?  Do you deny that after the Synod, new-rome promotes a divorce-friendly atmosphere?  Do you deny that new-rome promotes an NFP/immoral atmosphere?  I could go on and on.  No one who goes to a diocese approved church can avoid these scandals, which are a temptation to one's Faith, an unnecessary occasion of sin.

    Generally speaking, human nature only improves to the level of its environment.  We owe God our best; we owe God the best liturgy, the best schools, the best of ourselves - which is to become a saint.  Generally speaking, the indult catholics receive a mix of old and new theology, a mix of truth and half-truth, a mix of orthodoxy and novelty and this is not the best that God deserves.  It is the not the best for their souls.  God demands our "first fruits", especially in religion.
    Logged

    Offline MMagdala

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 876
    • Reputation: +342/-78
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 09:54:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on April 20, 2019, 07:08:08 AM
    We had received excellent Catholic education from Father Fahnestock and Father Kevin Robinson of SSPX.  There was plenty of reading materials available too.   (And from our beloved diocesan pastor who died recently. ).
    I apologize if my own remarks insinuated anything negative about anyone who came to traditionalism "late" (i.e. at some time in adulthood).  They were definitely not meant to imply a lack of education/knowledge on the part of adult trads as a whole.  I was referring more to the unevenness of a typical trad community:  some quite steeped in it, others focused mostly or only on the Mass, etc.  
    :)
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 11:09:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
    The new mass teaches a new theology; it is a protestantization of the mass; it is an abomination which is anti-Trent and anti-Catholic in its liturgy.  One can have all the schooling in the world, but if you attend the new mass (or accept it, as the indult'ers do), you are accepting error.  This acceptance, in and of itself, is a theological and doctrinal problem.
    How exactly does the Mass itself teach theology?

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
    ??  There's plenty of books out there which related the history of Traditionalists in the 60s and 70s.  How they left their diocese (or rather, most of them were kicked out of their churches for challenging the priests and bishops and causing "disruptions".)  They left the new religion and found priests who did the same.  They had masses in hotels, basements and garages.  They slowly grew in organization until they eventually bought chapels and then started schools.  Once +ABL consecrated the 4 bishops in the mid 80s and there was a growth of priests, the sspx helped to spread the faith and say mass at these chapels that were started by catholics in the 70s.  Those of the 60s, 70s and early 80s laid the groundwork for Traditionalism as we see it today.
    What on Earth are you on about? What does any of this have to do with people attending NO masses?

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
    Your view of the indult mass is very myopic.  The new-bishops do not have the faith; new-rome does not have the faith; most new-priests do not have the faith; even most indult-priests do not have the FULL faith.
    You're a sedevacantist then. That's swell and all, but most Trads aren't and don't agree with you there. So while conservative NOers might recognise and follow a false hierarchy, so do the SSPX and most Trads at the end of the day. So again, not something that only they are guilty of.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
    You seem to think that one can attend the indult mass for 2 hrs on sunday and not be affected by all the other unorthodox, scandalous, blasphemous, heretical ideals, people, priests and information that engulfs a diocese the other 166 hours of the week. Are you denying that new-rome promotes a gαy-friendly atmosphere?  Do you deny that after the Synod, new-rome promotes a divorce-friendly atmosphere?  Do you deny that new-rome promotes an NFP/immoral atmosphere?  I could go on and on.  No one who goes to a diocese approved church can avoid these scandals, which are a temptation to one's Faith, an unnecessary occasion of sin.
    First of all, indults are irrelevant and you need to stop bringing them up as strawmen. Secondly, your strange idea that every diocese is hosting gαy pride parades every Tuesday is both untrue and absurd. You live in some wacko world where every NO church is some gαy orgy zoo. It's not. Why should sins and sacrileges of other dioceses matter to some random Catholic going to the same parish that has nothing to do with that nonsense that he's been going to for decades? As for the promotions of new Rome, again what has that to do with the Mass? The Mass is separate from the heresies of Bishops and the Pope. You could argue that they should realise the Pope is a formal heretic and therefore not the Pope(and therefore the NO isn't valid), but the SSPX and the majority of Trads still recognise the Pope despite of his heresies. So random NOer #1296056 is no more guilty of those things for recognising the Pope, in spite of his false teachings, than SSPX attendee #23275

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
    Generally speaking, human nature only improves to the level of its environment.  We owe God our best; we owe God the best liturgy, the best schools, the best of ourselves - which is to become a saint.  Generally speaking, the indult catholics receive a mix of old and new theology, a mix of truth and half-truth, a mix of orthodoxy and novelty and this is not the best that God deserves.  It is the not the best for their souls.  God demands our "first fruits", especially in religion.
    What do indults have to do with this at all? Read the title of the thread again.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #37 on: April 20, 2019, 07:08:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    What do indults have to do with this at all?

    I've been talking about the indult mass since the beginning of this thread.  Not sure how you missed those many references.  If you want to go to the new mass or the indult latin mass, no one is stopping you.  If you think you can easily save your soul through these masses, then you have an obligation to be "in communion with new-rome" and to follow your local bishop.  You seem to defend the indult quite strongly, and you seem to feel that many of them know their faith well enough.  Good luck with that.
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #38 on: April 20, 2019, 07:13:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
    I've been talking about the indult mass since the beginning of this thread.  Not sure how you missed those many references.  If you want to go to the new mass or the indult latin mass, no one is stopping you.  If you think you can easily save your soul through these masses, then you have an obligation to be "in communion with new-rome" and to follow your local bishop.  You seem to defend the indult quite strongly, and you seem to feel that many of them know their faith well enough.  Good luck with that.
    I've never mentioned the Indult at all except to ask you why you were talking about them. The thread was originally about the Novus Ordo Mass, as it says in the title, and it was you who responded to me, not the reverse, so don't pretend like it was me who dragged the conversation off-topic. 
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #39 on: April 20, 2019, 07:39:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    The thread was originally about the Novus Ordo Mass,
    The thread was about the new mass but also conciliar catholics, which Matthew mentioned in the 1st post, which includes indult catholics, many of whom go to both the new mass and the latin mass.  
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #40 on: April 20, 2019, 07:43:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 20, 2019, 07:39:07 PM
    The thread was about the new mass but also conciliar catholics, which Matthew mentioned in the 1st post, which includes indult catholics, many of whom go to both the new mass and the latin mass.  
    And then I made a post about NOers to which you responded. And then you went off on a huge tangent about Indults and put words in my mouth about them. 
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #41 on: April 20, 2019, 08:06:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
    • Indult catholics ARE novus ordo catholics.  One day they go to the new mass; another day they go to the indult.  Maybe they go to the indult mostly.  But they are all infected by new rome's modernism; they all have doubtful priests; they all have doubtful sacraments; they all accept V2.  Some to a lesser degree than others, but still.  They share more similarities than differences.
    Logged

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #42 on: April 20, 2019, 08:25:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: forlorn on April 20, 2019, 07:13:06 PM
    I've never mentioned the Indult at all except to ask you why you were talking about them. The thread was originally about the Novus Ordo Mass, as it says in the title, and it was you who responded to me, not the reverse, so don't pretend like it was me who dragged the conversation off-topic.
    It was originally my fault, because I asked Matthew why he thought it was better to stay home than to go to an Indult mass such as an FSSP.
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #43 on: April 20, 2019, 08:32:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: forlorn on April 19, 2019, 02:54:29 PM
    Agree completely. I was honestly shocked and horrified when I first heard people declare that Catholics who attended Novus Ordo masses were damned schismatics. For the average person they had no reason to believe they should've ran for the hills after Vatican 2. It was, and still is, very possible to go to a Novus Ordo Mass every Sunday as a devout Catholic professing all the dogmas of the Faith, and not realise there's anything wrong with the rite at all. Sure these days we have access to constant streams of news on scandals in the Church and the latest crazy outbursts of Francis, so it's much harder to be ignorant of the Crisis today, but it was very possible for the first few decades of the Crisis and still possible for some today.

    And even if someone was aware of the Crisis but truly believed the Novus Ordo rite was valid and proper, and held the Catholic faith in whole, I don't think they're a heretic or a schismatic or the like. In error and needing correction? From our view, and we should endeavour to do that. But some heretic or schismatic damned to Hell, as the Dimonds and co. would tell us? Hardly.
    Just going to quote my own first post to show how I only said rite and Mass about a dozen times, and there's no way it could be misinterpreted as referring to or including Indults. 

    Your Indult strawman tangent still has 0 relevance whatsoever to our argument no matter how much you try to put words in my mouth and twist what I said. 
    Logged
    Pages: 1 2 [3]
    « previous next »