Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: ByzCat3000 on October 23, 2020, 08:13:16 PM
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I'm gonna try to keep this succinct so it might be tricky to explain.
Pretty much all of my family members are Protestants, so I interact with them daily. My father is a Baptist "pastor." I'm a recent convert, having converted in 2019. I'd say I've always been, and still kind of am (though I go to SSPX now) kind of not 100% consistently traditional by a strict definition, but definitely heavily leaning that way. I'm convinced that the Novus Ordo is illicit at this point. I leaned that way, but wasn't quite sure, for most of my time as a Catholic.
So almost all of us, at a minimum, wouldn't attend any NO church, would consider ourselves Catholics, may or may not think Francis is the Pope, but if we do, at the least heavily qualifying our obedience to him, as Ladislaus has pointed out before, far more so than maybe saying a paragraph or two of an encyclical, most people here probably wouldn't ever attend the indult either and while I haven't worked that out fully yet I definitely sympathize with the arguments.
I'm not really asking how this is defensible, abstractly and objectively speaking. I'm asking you guys honestly
1: Do you guys ever interact with protestants and talk to them about the faith?
And
2: If so, how do you guys *explain* these things *to them*?
A lot of times the conversation goes something like, I'll make the argument that sola scriptura is absurd because 1: You only really get the canon from the Church to begin with, and 2: We see from Acts 15 that when a doctrinal issue comes up the *Church* makes a decision corporately and not each individual for himself. And I'll get pushback, usually various forms of ignorance about epistemology, but still something like "Catholics pick and choose too, you wouldn't go to just any Catholic Church, you disbelieve a lot of things the Pope says" etc.
I know some of you are gonna be Sedevacantist and some aren't. I'm OK with that. But to be clear I'm asking how you guys present the faith *To Protestants*. I'm *not* asking you how you'd refute Trads in the other camp.
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I did have my next door neighbor, a Lutheran presbyter, ask me, don't you think others can be saved. I said, If you believe there is one God, then there can be only one True Faith. He never said a thing again to me. He does not want to go near the subject.
Next, the best reading I would steer a protestant to would be Cardinal Manning. He is a convert from the Anglican sect. He is sympathetic to them, understanding and just directs them so well.
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1: Do you guys ever interact with protestants and talk to them about the faith?
And
2: If so, how do you guys *explain* these things *to them*?
They are indeed "hard nuts to crack". They have a stripped-down, simplified variation on Christianity, it meets all their needs (as they perceive them), and it answers all their questions. You are basically asking them to abandon something simple, something that works for them, and to move towards something more complicated, that addresses spiritual deficiencies in themselves, that they don't even perceive themselves as having. Keep in mind, too, that they gravitate towards whatever flavor of pseudo-Christianity strikes their fancy --- they begin by considering "what they themselves believe", and then find a church that fits this. I have never known of a Protestant who, when faced with a potential choice of "do I do what I want to do, or are there some things that can't be done, no matter how strong the desire or how pressing the need?", doesn't find a way to ratify their desired behavior. If there is a "hard case", it gets settled in their favor. Case in point, divorce and remarriage. I have never known of a Protestant who said "I'm divorced, but I can't remarry, because divorce only settles civil issues, and I am still married to this spouse, no matter what, not even if they've 'married' someone else". Contraception is another example --- the "technology" came into being, it was fairly easy to use, it satisfied the urge for sex on demand without consequences, so presto, it "became" okay, the shiny new thing that all the other kids on the block had, so to speak, so why can't I have it too?
And one very important thing: in the view of many Protestants, "sin isn't really real". They are huge on moral rectitude and "respectability", especially where it involves sins that other people would find out about, but when the bullet hits the bone, hey, it's a sin, but if it's something no one will ever know about if I don't tell them, well, if I fall into that sin, it's not so bad. Only God and I will ever know about it, and He'll forgive me, so no problemo. Besides, Jesus took care of all sin on the Cross, and I can just transfer the guilt over to Him, and go on my merry way. As long as everyone can look and act respectable on Sunday mornings, that's pretty much all that matters.
It's a pretty seductive little package, and it's difficult to get people away from it, once they've embraced it... to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
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This is the same issue I've had. I feel like I could argue for why the pre-Vatican 2 Church is the one true church easily enough(whether it'd convince them or not is another thing, but I'd be satisfied with my arguments), but explaining the Crisis to non-Catholics is just an impossibility for me... because I can't even explain it to myself.
The V2 popes not only discouraged evangelisation, but they've sure managed to make it as difficult as possible for those who try too.
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It might help to realize first and foremost that unless they are sincerely seeking for the truth or are under your care, in all likelihood you are wasting your time. With that in mind.......
I've had no luck re-interpreting Scripture for them as they rifle verses from a corrupted Bible like bullets, so imo, take that off your list.
I have experienced great luck a few times by introducing and explaining to them Our Blessed Mother, who is someone they abhor and want nothing to do with. But it seems, if they will pay attention for the first minute or two and not immediately condemn you for being an idol worshiper, sometimes they begin to realize one huge thing they've been missing and want to find out more.
I suggest reading The Glories of Mary. After reading it, you will have gained a lot of knowledge and understanding on the subject of Our Lady and be better armed to council others, leading to their conversion to the Catholic faith. It is their choice though, same as it was your choice, sadly, many choose the wrong road and there is nothing we can do about that.
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Good advice there.
I would just like to add a few comments -
Everyone does have free will, you have to keep that in mind. So unless they seem to be open to the truth, open to conversion, then you're usually wasting your time. You can always plant a seed I suppose. But it comes back to the old adage, "Advice unasked for is often spurned."
When someone comes to you sincerely seeking the truth, clear your schedule! It's a golden opportunity.
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OK so don't waste your time on people who aren't receptive. That's fair. BUt what if you're talking to someone who's receptive, but they just kind of think its sophistic that you won't attend most parishes of the One True Church of Christ, or that you either don't believe the Pope is the Pope or else you believe the Pope is the Pope but don't listen to anything he says (for R and R.) How do you guys explain these things to sincere but confused prots?
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St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant
People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!
St. Peter Julian Eymard
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OK so don't waste your time on people who aren't receptive. That's fair. BUt what if you're talking to someone who's receptive, but they just kind of think its sophistic that you won't attend most parishes of the One True Church of Christ, or that you either don't believe the Pope is the Pope or else you believe the Pope is the Pope but don't listen to anything he says (for R and R.) How do you guys explain these things to sincere but confused prots?
If the person gets to that point and actually wants an explanation, you should rejoice! You've got one on the hook, reel them in slowly, with much patience and charity.
Explain that the devil has convinced the leaders of the Church including the pope, to lose and ravage the faith but that the true Church still remains within the various trad groups whose leaders have not lost the faith, so you go where the true faith, Mass and sacraments are found. Of course you will need to expand greatly on this, but just explain it as you understand it. Do not worry about some points you cannot answer because it's likely to happen that you do not have some answers - but you can get them.
If the person really is serious and on that account wants answers right this minute, then it might be best to get a hold of a trad priest and set up a time to meet or speak with the priest.
If they are sincere, one thing seems to work quite well, one thing that seems to expedite or prompts them toward conversion, is to tell them that they will never get to heaven if they are not baptized. It seems sometimes either immediately or after a little time, the fear dying come over them and they want to be baptized right away, but at the same time may not be as anxious to convert, so you may have more explaining to do.
I will caution you that if there is no danger of death, do not baptize them yourself because, aside from other reasons, they need the faith to go along with their baptism so leave that up to a priest.