Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: 2Vermont on August 25, 2014, 07:56:25 AM
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About 6-9 months ago, I checked this site:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm
At the time, all of the EM's listed were either pre-Vatican II or, after doing a bit of research, I found that the EM was not of the Novus Ordo. For example, the 2001 EM in India happened during the Eastern Catholic liturgy.
I just checked this site again and there seems to be a number of other additional miracles dating after Vatican II (and from what I can tell these probably occurred during the NO mass):
Venezuela in 1991
Argentina in 1992-1996
Mexico in 2006
Poland in 2008
For those of us who question the Novus Ordo mass, how do we explain this?
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Jesus is reminding us of His real presence in the Eucharist.
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I can think of a few things:
1. It may actually be a miracle
2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
4. Evil could be involved
5. It is a hoax
These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.
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I can think of a few things:
1. It may actually be a miracle
2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
4. Evil could be involved
5. It is a hoax
These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.
There is no authority left. They can only go be feelings and sensationalism in the new church.
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I can think of a few things:
1. It may actually be a miracle
2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
4. Evil could be involved
5. It is a hoax
These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.
Well, these are the "approved" miracles. If you click on the website and look for the specific country you will find the story behind it as well as the scientific investigations. They certainly seem legit.
I guess this is making me question the validity of the NO Mass. If these are real, then why would Christ make Himself present at a mass that is not legit? Of course, I'm dealing with NewChurch's "approval" so you never know what to believe anymore.
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I can think of a few things:
1. It may actually be a miracle
2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
4. Evil could be involved
5. It is a hoax
These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.
Well, these are the "approved" miracles. If you click on the website and look for the specific country you will find the story behind it as well as the scientific investigations. They certainly seem legit.
I guess this is making me question the validity of the NO Mass. If these are real, then why would Christ make Himself present at a mass that is not legit? Of course, I'm dealing with NewChurch's "approval" so you never know what to believe anymore.
That is it. Someone with no authority "approves" it.
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I think there can be a lot of motivation to create a hoax. Especially where the NO is really hurting financially. Keep your church open, have a miracle!
Do we really trust these guys to investigate matters properly? Their heads are so full of social justice, community, and not judging, I'm not sure they can even define the word "miracle".
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I think there can be a lot of motivation to create a hoax. Especially where the NO is really hurting financially. Keep your church open, have a miracle!
Do we really trust these guys to investigate matters properly? Their heads are so full of social justice, community, and not judging, I'm not sure they can even define the word "miracle".
Correct. They drop the bread all over the place and step on it during the "Pope" rock fests where the immodest fornicators take it in their hands and pop it in their mouths like a potato chip.
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Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.
Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.
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Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.
Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.
We have only objective truth to go by. Sacramental theology teaches what we are to believe in regards to the Real Presence in the Novus Ordo. This in regards to the "consecration" of "bishops" "ordination" of "priests" and the "consecration" of the bread by in invalid "priest" "ordained" by an invalid "bishop" using an invalid "consecration" formula which changes the meaning what the words are supposed to convey.
We should not even being looking to the Novus Ordo for anything. There are miracles at Medjigorie as well.
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Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.
Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.
You do have a good point. I think it does come down to the priest and whether he actually consecrates the host (as opposed to the validity of the Mass itself). But then that brings into question the validity of the Rites of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.
A man can have the right intention, but if he isn't a valid priest, he isn't going to turn the bread into the Body of our Lord no matter how much he wants it.
It would be interesting to find out whether these priests were either ordained in the Old Rite (probably not) or at least whether the bishops who ordained them were consecrated in the Old Rite.
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Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.
Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.
You do have a good point. I think it does come down to the priest and whether he actually consecrates the host (as opposed to the validity of the Mass itself). But then that brings into question the validity of the Rites of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.
A man can have the right intention, but if he isn't a valid priest, he isn't going to turn the bread into the Body of our Lord no matter how much he wants it.
It would be interesting to find out whether these priests were either ordained in the Old Rite (probably not) or at least whether the bishops who ordained them were consecrated in the Old Rite.
We should not even concern ourselves about such things unless seeking the true and believing the Novus Ordo could be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Perhaps the Orthodox have Eucharistic miracles. I bet they do. Just ask them.
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I understand how it could be possible that a miracle occurred, or maybe a co-incidence that appears to be a miracle. Perhaps something supernatural occurred, I couldn't say for sure. The biggest possibilities it might seem, is if, in these other languages, the core form is not tampered with in the translations. That's the technical possibility.
When you look at the other NO "miracles" though, what do you see? There is no difference in standards in judging them. It is like a democracy, everyone believes it so it must be good and must be a miracle. Would you want to be the unpopular bishop who said "No" when the news, tourists, and pilgrims are lined up?
Even the blood of St. Januarius liquifies in the hands of its illegitimate keepers. I don't think these happenings are a good indicator for the validity of the NO one way or the other.
Perhaps what you are realizing, 2Vermont, is that the real Church and this imposter church are so close, there are Catholics in each. The latter is part of a sect, but they are unaware and duped. It doesn't make the NO valid, and it doesn't mean that God has abandoned them, either. I honestly believe that Catholics on every side of the crisis will be saved. Not all of them, of course, but that salvation isn't going to be just for the long-skirted sedevacantists who are non-una cuм. It's a silly example but I refuse to fall into the trap of thinking that only people like me receive graces or will be saved, ya know. That's an attitude I have met among trads quite often.
Not to get too far off tangent but I think that goes the same for whatever goes on in the NO, because there are fine points of theology to consider here. Certain small factors can change the outcome of a situation. That's only considering that it might be a true miracle. There is also the scary and dark flip side.
My best guess is usually that the people have convinced themselves. If you've ever talked to anyone who has been present at such events, and listen to their stories, it usually comes out that way. Medjugorie is a great example of this.
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The last thing liberals in the church is to deal with Eucharistic Miracles,
and they will universally shoot it down because it offends the new
way they are presenting the church to the non catholics and the
non religious.
They will laugh at it and ignore it. And say you are crazy if you
believe in it.
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A consecrated Host becomes flesh and blood
At seven o’clock in the evening on August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet was saying Holy Mass at a Catholic church in the commercial center of Buenos Aires. As he was finishing distributing Holy Communion, a woman came up to tell him that she had found a discarded host on a candleholder at the back of the church. On going to the spot indicated, Fr. Alejandro saw the defiled Host. Since he was unable to consume it, he placed it in a container of water and put it away in the tabernacle of the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament.
On Monday, August 26, upon opening the tabernacle, he saw to his amazement that the Host had turned into a bloody substance. He informed Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio (Auxiliary Bishop at that time, now Pope Francis), who gave instructions that the Host be professionally photographed. The photos were taken on September 6. They clearly show that the Host, which had become a fragment of bloodied flesh, had grown significantly in size. For several years the Host remained in the tabernacle, the whole affair being kept a strict secret. Since the Host suffered no visible decomposition, Cardinal Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed.
On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.”
Two Australians, journalist Mike Willesee and lawyer Ron Tesoriero, witnessed these tests. Knowing where sample had come from, they were dumbfounded by Dr. Zugiba’s testimony. Mike Willesee asked the scientist how long the white blood cells would have remained alive if they had come from a piece of human tissue, which had been kept in water. They would have ceased to exist in a matter of minutes, Dr. Zugiba replied. The journalist then told the doctor that the source of the sample had first been kept in ordinary water for a month and then for another three years in a container of distilled water; only then had the sample been taken for analysis. Dr. Zugiba’s was at a loss to account for this fact. There was no way of explaining it scientifically, he stated. Only then did Mike Willesee inform Dr. Zugiba that the analyzed sample came from a consecrated Host (white, unleavened bread) that had mysteriously turned into bloody human flesh. Amazed by this information, Dr. Zugiba replied, “How and why a consecrated Host would change its character and become living human flesh and blood will remain an inexplicable mystery to science—a mystery totally beyond her competence.”
Only faith in the extraordinary action of a God provides the reasonable answer—faith in a God, who wants to make us aware that He is truly present in the mystery of the Eucharist.
The Eucharistic miracle in Buenos Aires is an extraordinary sign attested to by science. Through it Jesus desires to arouse in us a lively faith in His real presence in the Eucharist. He reminds us that His presence is real, and not symbolic. Only with the eyes of faith do we see Him under appearance of the consecrated bread and wine. We do not see Him with our bodily eyes, since He is present in His glorified humanity. In the Eucharist Jesus sees and loves us and desires to save us.
In collaboration with Ron Tesoriero, Mike Willesee, one of Australia’s best-known journalists (he converted to Catholicism after working on the docuмents of another Eucharistic miracle) wrote a book entitled Reason to Believe. In it they present docuмented facts of Eucharistic miracles and other signs calling people to faith in Christ who abides and teaches in the Catholic Church. They have also made a docuмentary film on the Eucharist—based largely on the scientific discoveries associated with the miraculous Host in Buenos Aires. Their aim was to give a clear presentation of the Catholic Church’s teaching on the subject of the Eucharist. They screened the film in numerous Australian cities. The showing at Adelaide drew a crowd of two thousand viewers. During the commentary and question period that followed a visibly moved man stood up announcing that he was blind. Having learned that this was an exceptional film, he had very much wanted to see it. Just before the screening, he prayed fervently to Jesus for the grace to see the film. At once his sight was restored to him, but only for the thirty-minute duration of the film. Upon its conclusion, he again lost the ability to see. He confirmed this by describing in minute detail certain scenes of the film. It was an incredible event that moved those present to the core of their being.
Through such wondrous signs God calls souls to conversion. If Jesus causes the Host to become visible flesh and blood, a muscle that is responsible for the contraction of a human heart—a heart that suffers like that of someone who has been beaten severely about the chest, if He does such things, it is in order to arouse and quicken our faith in His real presence in the Eucharist. He thus enables us to see that Holy Mass is a re-presentation (i.e. a making present) of the entire drama of our salvation: Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection. Jesus says to his disciples, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will not believe” (Jn 4: 48). There is no need to actively seek out wondrous signs. But if Jesus chooses to give them to us, then it behooves us to accept them with meekness and seek to understand what He desires to tell us by them. Thanks to these signs, many people have discovered faith in God—the One God in the Holy Trinity, who reveals His Son to us: Jesus Christ, who abides in the sacraments and teaches us through Holy Scripture and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
http://absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/pope-francis-eucharistic-miracle-in-buenos-aires-argentina/
This Eucharistic miracle happened at the Novus Ordo.
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Cardinal Bergoglio was involved in declaring this a miracle?
Why doesn't that give me warm fuzzies?
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I have heard of "miracles" in protestant sects, in Pagan sects, in Islam, in modern Judaism. Obviously, none of them were "Eucharistic miracles", but many religions claim to have miracles.
I don't know what to think other than the fact that these modern-day "Eucharistic miracles" don't seem to be re-invigorating any faith in the Real Presence on any wide--or even narrow--scale and the people who discover the miracles seem to take the opportunity to bask in the spotlight of fame for a time not unlike the housewife who sees Jesus in a pancake or something like that.
Something just doesn't feel right about them.
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The mystery centers on a consecrated host that the Rev. John Echert of St. Augustine Church said fell to the floor last month during Holy Communion and turned “blood red” after being placed in a cup filled with water. It has yet to fully dissolve, he said.
“It was notable enough that, clearly, it was some phenomenon and not the ordinary way in which a host would dissolve…that we’re familiar with,” Echert said.
The archdiocese, which now has the host, is taking a “very cautious stance on the matter,” spokesman Dennis McGrath said.
“I make no claims, and the archdiocese makes no claims, as to the likelihood of this being supernatural,” Echert said. “But it is enough of a phenomenon, or unusual, that we will continue to examine this host.”
He added: “I’ve never in my 24 years as a priest seen or been aware of a phenomenon where a consecrated host placed in water turns to this bright-colored red and continues in what I would call the blood-red color.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2011/07/eucharistic-miracle-in-minnesota/
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I have heard of "miracles" in protestant sects, in Pagan sects, in Islam, in modern Judaism. Obviously, none of them were "Eucharistic miracles", but many religions claim to have miracles.
I don't know what to think other than the fact that these modern-day "Eucharistic miracles" don't seem to be re-invigorating any faith in the Real Presence on any wide--or even narrow--scale and the people who discover the miracles seem to take the opportunity to bask in the spotlight of fame for a time not unlike the housewife who sees Jesus in a pancake or something like that.
Something just doesn't feel right about them.
Jesus is calling on us to believe in his Eucharistic Presence. We have to listen.
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How to create a fake Eucharistic miracle:
1. Have either a gullible priest who went along with it OR a sociopathic priest who created this forgery for power/recognition/more parishioners.
2. Have either a few gullible parishioners who are so desperate to feel anything at 'mass' that they believe they saw a miracle, OR have a few sociopathic parishioners who said they saw a miracle for some asinine purpose.
3. Have the rest of the parishioners buy into the miracle, they already bought into the bogus NO sect, so its not hard for them
4. Have church authorities whose job is to find and verify miracles buy into the fake miracle- as there are no real miracles in the NO sect, they would be out of a job without some miracles. So they exaggerate and sensationalize steps 1-3.
5. You have a miracle
And remember it was Satan who set up the counter-church, Satan is guiding all these steps so they come into fruition, and with every fake NO miracle more people lose their souls, as more people enter this fake church and almost all, if not all will sadly lose their souls.
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How to create a fake Eucharistic miracle:
1. Have either a gullible priest who went along with it OR a sociopathic priest who created this forgery for power/recognition/more parishioners.
2. Have either a few gullible parishioners who are so desperate to feel anything at 'mass' that they believe they saw a miracle, OR have a few sociopathic parishioners who said they saw a miracle for some asinine purpose.
3. Have the rest of the parishioners buy into the miracle, they already bought into the bogus NO sect, so its not hard for them
4. Have church authorities whose job is to find and verify miracles buy into the fake miracle- as there are no real miracles in the NO sect, they would be out of a job without some miracles. So they exaggerate and sensationalize steps 1-3.
5. You have a miracle
And remember it was Satan who set up the counter-church, Satan is guiding all these steps so they come into fruition, and with every fake NO miracle more people lose their souls, as more people enter this fake church and almost all, if not all will sadly lose their souls.
That is why these phenomena are investigated.
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A Mexican priest is claiming that, after hearing the voice of God, the host which he had just consecrated began to bleed. The bloody host was available for adoration for some time, at which point the Archbishop ordered the Host to be reposed until further investigation.
Here is what happened:
“This is a time of great blessing for this community and for the whole world.” says Father Jose Dolores Castellanos Gudino of the phenomenon that occurred in his parish yesterday after blood flowed from a consecrated host.
Amid songs, clapping, tears, long lines and cell phones trying to capture the moment, thousands of faithful Catholics and non-believers alike visited the Parish of Mary Mother of the Church located in Colonia Jardines de la Paz (Guadalajara, Mexico) to witness the alleged miracle.
A flash and a voice
It was 12:00 on the date when the pastor was making his daily prayer before the Blessed Sacrament when suddenly saw a flash and heard a voice that instructed him:
“Chime the bells to summon everyone, pour out blessings to those who are present, and all day. Take your small tabernacle from private worship and bring it to the altar of the parish, place the largest monstrance next to it, and do not open the Tabernacle until three in the afternoon, no sooner, when I will perform a miracle in the Eucharist. The miracle to take place will be called the “Miracle of the Eucharist in the Incarnation of Love Joined With Our Mother and Queen,’ you will take the sign of which I speak, and you will display it.”
Afterward, “the voice” told him to tell “the apostles” (the priests) to help all souls in their conversion and fill them with blessings.
Father Lolo–as his parishioners know him–said he could not utter a word to that voice that spoke except, “My Lord, am thy servant, I will do thy will.” His voice breaking with emotion that he could not conceal, the priest continued narrating what happened:
“I did as I was ordered, I asked them to open the doors of the church, it was about half past two, and I said to sound the bells as I was told. I took from my small private chapel this humble wooden tabernacle, I put it on the altar, also got the monstrance as I was ordered and at about three in the afternoon people were gathered in prayer to the Blessed Sacrament. When I asked if it was already three in the afternoon and everyone told me yes, I went to open the tabernacle, and the wafer consecrated through our Lord Jesus Christ was bathed in blood.”
Celebrate every July 24th:
The father explained that what Jesus wants is to worship his body and blood bound to His Blessed Mother and that every July 24 we will remember the Eucharistic Miracle of the Incarnation of Love Joined with Our Mother and Lady.
“I heard (the voice) tell me that a niche for the adoration of souls would be established in this community, and that if at any time they want to perform studies that require a part [of the host] that they may do all the studies they want.”
He added:
“He (Jesus) is here present and I pass on to you only what I heard, together with those who saw what I saw.”
After the Mass, past 8:00 pm, Father Dolores Castelllanos’s secretary said he was unavailable to give an official statement, to say whether there had been contact with the Archdiocese of Guadalajara, or explain what would happen in the days after this incident.
During the first day of public viewing of the “bleeding host,” the disorder in the church was apparent, to the extent that the parish authorities advised cancelling the exposition–at times it was only possible to focus on the yelling and pushing of adults and children who wanted to come to the altar and be witnesses to what Father “Lolo” had seen.
The makeshift security guard of Mary Mother of the Church chose to place a screen on which were projected images of the “bloody host,” but over time this only served to further captivate those who had heard the rumor, like Mrs. Clara Aparicio, who appeared before the “Eucharistic Miracle” trusting that the asthma with which she suffered would disappear.
“I did not doubt what I had heard so strongly, so clearly. Now I show it as I was told,” said the priest. At the stroke of 9:00 pm, the guards closed the doors to hundreds of worshipers leaving no opportunity to observe the “bloody wafer,” saying that the viewing would resume on Thursday at about 8 a.m.
I leave this up for discernment and have read in other sources that the Bishop has launched an investigation into this phenomena and also has Fr. Lolo undergoing a set of tests to determine if what he saw was from God.
http://monk2be.com/breaking-news-eucharistic-miracle-in-mexico/
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I have heard of "miracles" in protestant sects, in Pagan sects, in Islam, in modern Judaism. Obviously, none of them were "Eucharistic miracles", but many religions claim to have miracles.
I don't know what to think other than the fact that these modern-day "Eucharistic miracles" don't seem to be re-invigorating any faith in the Real Presence on any wide--or even narrow--scale and the people who discover the miracles seem to take the opportunity to bask in the spotlight of fame for a time not unlike the housewife who sees Jesus in a pancake or something like that.
Something just doesn't feel right about them.
Remember too, the prophesies tell us the devil will work strange prodigies and miracles in the end times.
Are we living the end times? That is the question.
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St. Louis of France, who, once when he was called into his private chapel to see some miraculous appearance which had taken place at Mass, refused to go, saying he thanked God he believed in the Blessed Sacrament, and should not believe it more firmly for all the miracles in the world, neither did he wish to see one, lest he should forfeit or Lord's special blessings on those who have not seen, and yet believed. This was taken from the book, " All for Jesus" by Faber.
How true this is. Why is it, that when we received the true Body and Blood of Christ, a miracle, we should look at those other miracles, like this one mentioned and run to see it?