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Author Topic: Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II  (Read 4067 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
« on: August 25, 2014, 07:56:25 AM »
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  • About 6-9 months ago, I checked this site:

    http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm


    At the time, all of the EM's listed were either pre-Vatican II or, after doing a bit of research, I found that the EM was not of the Novus Ordo.  For example, the 2001 EM in India happened during the Eastern Catholic liturgy.

    I just checked this site again and there seems to be a number of other additional miracles dating after Vatican II (and from what I can tell these  probably occurred during the NO mass):

    Venezuela in 1991
    Argentina in 1992-1996
    Mexico in 2006
    Poland in 2008

    For those of us who question the Novus Ordo mass, how do we explain this?

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline poche

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 08:56:29 AM »
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  • Jesus is reminding us of His real presence in the Eucharist.


    Offline Mabel

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 12:09:57 PM »
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  • I can think of a few things:
    1. It may actually be a miracle
    2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
    3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
    4. Evil could be involved
    5. It is a hoax

    These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 12:12:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    I can think of a few things:
    1. It may actually be a miracle
    2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
    3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
    4. Evil could be involved
    5. It is a hoax

    These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.


    There is no authority left.  They can only go be feelings and sensationalism in the new church.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 12:20:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    I can think of a few things:
    1. It may actually be a miracle
    2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
    3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
    4. Evil could be involved
    5. It is a hoax

    These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.


    Well, these are the "approved" miracles.  If you click on the website and look for the specific country you will find the story behind it as well as the scientific investigations.  They certainly seem legit.

    I guess this is making me question the validity of the NO Mass.  If these are real, then why would Christ make Himself present at a mass that is not legit?  Of course, I'm dealing with NewChurch's "approval" so you never know what to believe anymore.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 12:26:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Mabel
    I can think of a few things:
    1. It may actually be a miracle
    2. Threshold for miracles is lower, definition of a miracle has changed
    3. Sensationalism, people thinking they saw something they did not, but convince themselves
    4. Evil could be involved
    5. It is a hoax

    These incidents only give a snapshot of the event, often in the NO, little details are swept under the rug, look at Medjugorie and the fraud that it is.


    Well, these are the "approved" miracles.  If you click on the website and look for the specific country you will find the story behind it as well as the scientific investigations.  They certainly seem legit.

    I guess this is making me question the validity of the NO Mass.  If these are real, then why would Christ make Himself present at a mass that is not legit?  Of course, I'm dealing with NewChurch's "approval" so you never know what to believe anymore.


    That is it.  Someone with no authority "approves" it.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Mabel

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 12:42:05 PM »
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  • I think there can be a lot of motivation to create a hoax. Especially where the NO is really hurting financially. Keep your church open, have a miracle!

    Do we really trust these guys to investigate matters properly? Their heads are so full of social justice, community, and not judging, I'm not sure they can even define the word "miracle".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 12:45:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    I think there can be a lot of motivation to create a hoax. Especially where the NO is really hurting financially. Keep your church open, have a miracle!

    Do we really trust these guys to investigate matters properly? Their heads are so full of social justice, community, and not judging, I'm not sure they can even define the word "miracle".


    Correct.  They drop the bread all over the place and step on it during the "Pope" rock fests where the immodest fornicators take it in their hands and pop it in their mouths like a potato chip.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Petertherock

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 01:14:55 PM »
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  • Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.

    Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 01:19:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Petertherock
    Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.

    Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.



    We have only objective truth to go by.  Sacramental theology teaches what we are to believe in regards to the Real Presence in the Novus Ordo.  This in regards to the "consecration" of "bishops" "ordination" of "priests" and the "consecration" of the bread by in invalid "priest" "ordained" by an invalid "bishop" using an invalid "consecration" formula which changes the meaning what the words are supposed to convey.

    We should not even being looking to the Novus Ordo for anything.  There are miracles at Medjigorie as well.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 01:21:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Petertherock
    Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.

    Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.



    You do have a good point.  I think it does come down to the priest and whether he actually consecrates the host (as opposed to the validity of the Mass itself).  But then that brings into question the validity of the Rites of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.

    A man can have the right intention, but if he isn't a valid priest, he isn't going to turn the bread into the Body of our Lord no matter how much he wants it.

    It would be interesting to find out whether these priests were either ordained in the Old Rite (probably not) or at least whether the bishops who ordained them were consecrated in the Old Rite.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 01:35:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Petertherock
    Or it could be that they are real miracles and the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is actually present in the NO. There are a lot of good and holy NO priests out there. There are a lot of good Catholics that go to the NO either because they have no trad Mass around or because they haven't been to a trad Mass for whatever reason. There are some NO Catholics that live the Catholic Faith better then some trads I have seen or come across on forums.

    Obviously, the NO Mass is a crap shoot...one of the reasons I don't attend...you never know if you are going to have a good priest that has the right intentions or if you will have a clown Mass. But I believe, out of the Goodness of God's mercy, he is present at the NO Mass for the sake of the few good Catholics that are trying to live the Faith as best as they can.



    You do have a good point.  I think it does come down to the priest and whether he actually consecrates the host (as opposed to the validity of the Mass itself).  But then that brings into question the validity of the Rites of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.

    A man can have the right intention, but if he isn't a valid priest, he isn't going to turn the bread into the Body of our Lord no matter how much he wants it.

    It would be interesting to find out whether these priests were either ordained in the Old Rite (probably not) or at least whether the bishops who ordained them were consecrated in the Old Rite.


    We should not even concern ourselves about such things unless seeking the true and believing the Novus Ordo could be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Perhaps the Orthodox have Eucharistic miracles.  I bet they do.  Just ask them.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Mabel

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 07:26:05 PM »
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  • I understand how it could be possible that a miracle occurred, or maybe a co-incidence that appears to be a miracle. Perhaps something supernatural occurred, I couldn't say for sure. The biggest possibilities it might seem, is if, in these other languages, the core form is not tampered with in the translations. That's the technical possibility.

    When you look at the other NO "miracles" though, what do you see? There is no difference in standards in judging them. It is like a democracy, everyone believes it so it must be good and must be a miracle. Would you want to be the unpopular bishop who said "No" when the news, tourists, and pilgrims are lined up?

    Even the blood of St. Januarius liquifies in the hands of its illegitimate keepers. I don't think these happenings are a good indicator for the validity of the NO one way or the other.

    Perhaps what you are realizing, 2Vermont, is that the real Church and this imposter church are so close, there are Catholics in each. The latter is part of a sect, but they are unaware and duped. It doesn't make the NO valid, and it doesn't mean that God has abandoned them, either. I honestly believe that Catholics on every side of the crisis will be saved. Not all of them, of course, but that salvation isn't going to be just for the long-skirted sedevacantists who are non-una cuм. It's a silly example but I refuse to fall into the trap of thinking that only people like me receive graces or will be saved, ya know. That's an attitude I have met among trads quite often.

    Not to get too far off tangent but I think that goes the same for whatever goes on in the NO, because there are fine points of theology to consider here. Certain small factors can change the outcome of a situation. That's only considering that it might be a true miracle. There is also the scary and dark flip side.

    My best guess is usually that the people have convinced themselves. If you've ever talked to anyone who has been present at such events, and listen to their stories, it usually comes out that way. Medjugorie is a great example of this.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Eucharistic Miracles post-Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 08:15:32 PM »
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  • The last thing liberals in the church is to deal with Eucharistic Miracles,
    and they will universally shoot it down because it offends the new
    way they are presenting the church to the non catholics and the
    non religious.
    They will laugh at it and ignore it. And say you are crazy if you
    believe in it.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 11:03:07 PM »
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  • A consecrated Host becomes flesh and blood

    At seven o’clock in the evening on August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet was saying Holy Mass at a Catholic church in the commercial center of Buenos Aires. As he was finishing distributing Holy Communion, a woman came up to tell him that she had found a discarded host on a candleholder at the back of the church. On going to the spot indicated, Fr. Alejandro saw the defiled Host. Since he was unable to consume it, he placed it in a container of water and put it away in the tabernacle of the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament.

    On Monday, August 26, upon opening the tabernacle, he saw to his amazement that the Host had turned into a bloody substance. He informed Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio (Auxiliary Bishop at that time, now Pope Francis), who gave instructions that the Host be professionally photographed. The photos were taken on September 6. They clearly show that the Host, which had become a fragment of bloodied flesh, had grown significantly in size. For several years the Host remained in the tabernacle, the whole affair being kept a strict secret. Since the Host suffered no visible decomposition, Cardinal Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed.

    On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.”

    Two Australians, journalist Mike Willesee and lawyer Ron Tesoriero, witnessed these tests. Knowing where sample had come from, they were dumbfounded by Dr. Zugiba’s testimony. Mike Willesee asked the scientist how long the white blood cells would have remained alive if they had come from a piece of human tissue, which had been kept in water. They would have ceased to exist in a matter of minutes, Dr. Zugiba replied. The journalist then told the doctor that the source of the sample had first been kept in ordinary water for a month and then for another three years in a container of distilled water; only then had the sample been taken for analysis. Dr. Zugiba’s was at a loss to account for this fact. There was no way of explaining it scientifically, he stated. Only then did Mike Willesee inform Dr. Zugiba that the analyzed sample came from a consecrated Host (white, unleavened bread) that had mysteriously turned into bloody human flesh. Amazed by this information, Dr. Zugiba replied, “How and why a consecrated Host would change its character and become living human flesh and blood will remain an inexplicable mystery to science—a mystery totally beyond her competence.”

    Only faith in the extraordinary action of a God provides the reasonable answer—faith in a God, who wants to make us aware that He is truly present in the mystery of the Eucharist.

    The Eucharistic miracle in Buenos Aires is an extraordinary sign attested to by science. Through it Jesus desires to arouse in us a lively faith in His real presence in the Eucharist. He reminds us that His presence is real, and not symbolic. Only with the eyes of faith do we see Him under appearance of the consecrated bread and wine. We do not see Him with our bodily eyes, since He is present in His glorified humanity. In the Eucharist Jesus sees and loves us and desires to save us.

    In collaboration with Ron Tesoriero, Mike Willesee, one of Australia’s best-known journalists (he converted to Catholicism after working on the docuмents of another Eucharistic miracle) wrote a book entitled Reason to Believe. In it they present docuмented facts of Eucharistic miracles and other signs calling people to faith in Christ who abides and teaches in the Catholic Church. They have also made a docuмentary film on the Eucharist—based largely on the scientific discoveries associated with the miraculous Host in Buenos Aires. Their aim was to give a clear presentation of the Catholic Church’s teaching on the subject of the Eucharist. They screened the film in numerous Australian cities. The showing at Adelaide drew a crowd of two thousand viewers. During the commentary and question period that followed a visibly moved man stood up announcing that he was blind. Having learned that this was an exceptional film, he had very much wanted to see it. Just before the screening, he prayed fervently to Jesus for the grace to see the film. At once his sight was restored to him, but only for the thirty-minute duration of the film. Upon its conclusion, he again lost the ability to see. He confirmed this by describing in minute detail certain scenes of the film. It was an incredible event that moved those present to the core of their being.

    Through such wondrous signs God calls souls to conversion. If Jesus causes the Host to become visible flesh and blood, a muscle that is responsible for the contraction of a human heart—a heart that suffers like that of someone who has been beaten severely about the chest, if He does such things, it is in order to arouse and quicken our faith in His real presence in the Eucharist. He thus enables us to see that Holy Mass is a re-presentation (i.e. a making present) of the entire drama of our salvation: Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection. Jesus says to his disciples, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will not believe” (Jn 4: 48). There is no need to actively seek out wondrous signs. But if Jesus chooses to give them to us, then it behooves us to accept them with meekness and seek to understand what He desires to tell us by them. Thanks to these signs, many people have discovered faith in God—the One God in the Holy Trinity, who reveals His Son to us: Jesus Christ, who abides in the sacraments and teaches us through Holy Scripture and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

    http://absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/pope-francis-eucharistic-miracle-in-buenos-aires-argentina/

    This Eucharistic miracle happened at the Novus Ordo.