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Author Topic: Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)  (Read 895 times)

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Offline roscoe

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Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
« on: August 18, 2014, 12:32:21 PM »
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  • It has been alleged by Ladislaus that St Thomas(Dr of RCC)  is guilty of about ' 4 dozen' presumably theological errors.

    So far none has been specifically mentioned except by another poster claiming that he denied the Immaculate Conception-- as asinine an accusation as has ever been made on Cathinfo.

    Could Lad pls be specific---- pls start with the top 3 errors iyo :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline roscoe

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 12:56:45 PM »
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  • Has any Pope or other Church Authority condemned the supposed errors of St Thomas?? Pls provide source :detective:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 02:30:14 PM »
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  • I don't know how trustworthy this source is, but in any case:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

    Quote
    St. Thomas at first pronounced in favour of the doctrine in his treatise on the "Sentences" (in I. Sent. c. 44, q. I ad 3), yet in his "Summa Theologica" he concluded against it. Much discussion has arisen as to whether St. Thomas did or did not deny that the Blessed Virgin was immaculate at the instant of her animation, and learned books have been written to vindicate him from having actually drawn the negative conclusion. Yet it is hard to say that St. Thomas did not require an instant at least, after the animation of Mary, before her sanctification. His great difficulty appears to have arisen from the doubt as to how she could have been redeemed if she had not sinned. This difficulty he raised in no fewer than ten passages in his writings (see, e.g., Summa III:27:2, ad 2). But while St. Thomas thus held back from the essential point of the doctrine, he himself laid down the principles which, after they had been drawn together and worked out, enabled other minds to furnish the true solution of this difficulty from his own premises.


     :judge:
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline roscoe

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 02:36:55 PM »
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  • You are right--- NA is not a trustworthy source.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 05:56:45 AM »
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  • The question was not definitively settled in the Church or in his mind at least in regards to specifics, when ensoulment takes place etc.  IMO, he didn't teach error, he was reasoning through it and concluding things based on the the information he had.  He clearly accepted whatever the Church taught and would readily renounce in error he taught if the Church concluded through her ordinary universal magisterium or through a solemn declaration that he erred.  I'm surprised more people have not spoke to the issue her.  I have very little to offer apart from what I remember in the distant past.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 09:46:20 AM »
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  • Ambrose treats the question in another post as follows:

    Quote
    St Thomas Aquinas's position on the Immaculate Conception

    SOURCE

    Contrary to the claims of the Modernists, St Thomas is not held universally to have rejected the Immaculate Conception. In fact, the principles of St Thomas provided the basis for the definition of the dogma, when it finally came. It is indescribably frustrating when otherwise-pious Catholics point to St Thomas's supposed error on this point as a way of reducing his credibility. No doubt they are unaware of his absolutely unique position as a theologian and Doctor of the Universal Church. No doubt they are unaware that Canon Law prescribes that all professors of theology are to hold and teach the "arguments, doctrine, and principles" of St. Thomas. Canon 1366, Section 2 : "The study of philosophy and theology and the teaching of these sciences to their students must be accurately carried out by Professors (in seminaries etc.) according to the arguments, doctrine, and principles of St. Thomas which they are inviolately to hold." Canon 589 prescribes that religious are to do likewise. No other doctor holds this place in Catholic theology.

    But ignorance of these facts does not explain the astonishing ease with which many today will throw out the one-liner; "Oh, St Thomas was wrong on the Immaculate Conception." Really? And I suppose they've studied the question well enough to have an opinion? Possibly the briefest way to deal with such nonsense is to ask the armchair expert if they could kindly explain what St Thomas DID teach on this doctrine. Embarrassing silence is the usual response. This short note is intended to answer that question, albeit not in great detail, but at least by presenting the scholarly views of those learned enough to hold an opinion on the matter.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Thomas at first pronounced in favour of the doctrine in his treatise on the "Sentences" (inI. Sent. c. 44, q. I ad 3), yet in his "Summa Theologica" he concluded against it. Much discussion has arisen as to whether St. Thomas did or did not deny that the Blessed Virgin was immaculate at the instant of her animation, and learned books have been written to vindicate him from having actually drawn the negative conclusion. For this controversy see: Cornoldi, "Sententia S. Thomae etc.", (2nd ed., Naples, 1870); Ronard de Card, "L'ordre des Freres-precheurs et l'immaculee Conception" (Brussels, 1864), Pesch, "Prael. dogm." III (Freiburg, 1895), 170; Heinrich-Gutberlet, "Dogmat. Theol.", VII (Mainz, 1896), 436; Tobbe, "Die Stellung des hl. Thomas zu der unbefl. Empfangnis" (Munster, 1892); C. M. Schneider, "Die unbefl. Empfangnis und die Erbsunde" (Ratisbon, 1892); Pohle, "Lehrbuch d. Dogmatik", II (Paderborn, 1903), 254. Yet it is hard to say that St. Thomas did not require an instant at least, after the animation of Mary, before her sanctification. His great difficulty appears to have arisen from the doubt as to how she could have been redeemed if she had not sinned. This difficulty he raised in no fewer than ten passages in his writings (see, e.g., "Summa Theol.", III, Q. xxvii, a. 2, ad Sum). But while St. Thomas thus held back from the essential point of the doctrine, he himself laid down the principles which, after they had been drawn together and worked out, enabled other minds to furnish the true solution of this difficulty from his own premises."

    In other words, the author of this article thinks that St. Thomas decided against the Immaculate Conception, at least early in his career, but admits that many others have held that St. Thomas did no such thing. The key isue to grasp is that St. Thomas was very concerned to ensure that a dogma was not denied by those seeking to emphasise Mary's sinlessness - and that dogma was the Redemption. Our Lord redeemed all men, without exception. St. Thomas's emphasis that Mary too was redeemed is what has led to the controversy.


    Further proof that it is not a "given" that St Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception, is found in the following survey of the opinions of theologians on this question, from Volume VI, "Mariology", of Pohle-Preuss, Dogmatic Theology (12 volumes) Herder 1953, page 67:

    "5. The Teaching of St Thomas --- Theologians are divided in their opinion as to what was the mind of St Thomas in regard to the Immaculate Conception. Some frankly admit that he opposed what in his day was not yet a defined dogma, but insist that he virtually admitted what he formally denied. Others claim that the Angelic Doctor expressly defended the Immaculate Conception and that the (about fifteen) adverse passages quoted from his writings must be regarded as later interpolations. Between these two extremes stand two other groups of theologians, one of which holds that St Thomas was undecided in his attitude towards the Immaculate Conception, while the other merely maintains the impossibility of proving that he opposed it."

    Pohle gives examples of each type of theologian - about four or five names for each group. So, we see from this that the 'worst case' we can assert is that St Thomas proved the Immaculate Conception with his principles, and yet failed to clearly formulate the conclusion, which of course later theologians did. Indeed the definition of 1854 was based entirely on his principles.

    Any layman then, who says blankly that "St Thomas denied the Immaculate Conception," is not only rash, but demonstrates his ignorance of the opinions of theologians, the majority of whom cannot assert this but indeed at a minimum say that he was uncommitted.

    Personally I'd like to see all of the arguments of those who insist that he defended it, for my love of St Thomas is such that I would easily fall in with these "extremists" and look forward in the hope of his gratitude in Heaven! One such argument is this : St Thomas cannot have denied that which was not yet formulated. What he denied was that the Blessed Virgin was not redeemed, which assertion is indeed a heresy which he was right to oppose.

    An example of his teaching is the following : "Purity is constituted by a recession from impurity, and therefore it is possible to find some creature purer than all the rest, namely one not contaminated by any taint of sin; such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin, who was immune from original and actual sin, yet under God, inasmuch as there was in her the potentiality of sin." From the Commentary on the Book of Sentences.

    I submit that the average layman, if presented with this, would assert that it was a perfect summation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If nothing else it proves that we should hold our unfounded opinions in check, knowing that far greater men have puzzled over this question and not succeeded it solving it. The very fact that theologians debate what the mind of St Thomas was on this question shows as well as anything his unique position in theology.

    John Lane

    August 2nd, 1998

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Cantarella

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 10:34:11 AM »
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  • This is one found in Summa Theologia, III, Q.27, Art .2, ad.4

    Quote from: Summa

     Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman: for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."
     


    St Thomas held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception as he believed that Our Lady had been conceived in Original Sin. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 10:43:57 AM »
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  • There is another one found in Summa Theologia, III, Ques. 68, Art 2 & 3 in which he held the erroneous opinion that a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized (in water), on account of this desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity".

    Quote from: Summa

     Reply Obj. 2: No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all
     guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given
     when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason
     is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of
     Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment.
     Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else
     he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be
     without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die,
     would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment
     for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire"
     as is stated 1 Cor. 3:15.

     Reply Obj. 3: The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for
     salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism
     of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr.
     in Ps. 57).


    Keep in mind that the necessity of water baptism for salvation was defined at the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1547), years after St. Thomas died.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 10:57:17 AM »
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  • Keep in mind that the Feeneyites are desperate to undermine the greatest Doctor in the history of the Church because along with infallible ordinary universal magisterium of the Church teaches contrary to their erroneous interpretation of EENS.

    They can say what they like but the following is their "rational":

    The Greatest doctor in the history of the Church erred on the Immaculate Conception therefore he erred in regards to our peculiar modern interpretation of EENS.  

    First, it is not abundantly clear that he erred on the Immaculate Conception.

    Secondly if he did this does not mean that he along with the infallible ordinary magisterium of the Church erred on EENS.

    I will defend Thomas as the Church does.  I will not allow the Feeneyite error to mold our opinion of Thomas.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Errors(?) Of St Thomas(Dr of RCC)
    « Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 11:07:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    There is another one found in Summa Theologia, III, Ques. 68, Art 2 & 3 in which he held the erroneous opinion that a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized (in water), on account of this desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity".

    Quote from: Summa

     Reply Obj. 2: No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all
     guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given
     when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason
     is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of
     Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment.
     Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else
     he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be
     without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die,
     would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment
     for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire"
     as is stated 1 Cor. 3:15.

     Reply Obj. 3: The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for
     salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism
     of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr.
     in Ps. 57).


    Keep in mind that the necessity of water baptism for salvation was defined at the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1547), years after St. Thomas died.


    Aquinas and the rest of the Ordinary universal magisterium would not "err" on an issue of such great importance.  Besides EENS was solemnly defined before Thomas spoke to the issue.

    The Fourth Lateran Council (which was the twelfth Ecuмenical Council in the history of the Church) defined:  "There is, then, one universal Church of the faithful (una ... fidelium universalis ecclesia), outside of which no one at all is saved (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur)." (1215)

    Did Saint Thomas not get around to reading the above or all the other previous definitions pertaining to the Catholic Church and her necessity for salvation?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church