The Church has always presumed the validity of Baptism unless proven otherwise.

Quote from: Stubborn

The Church has always presumed the validity of Baptism unless proven otherwise.

True, for those in union with a true pope. Not for men who break away from tradition, as did Protestants, Ecuмenists and Modernists.

Have you no sense of responsibility?  No shame?  No concern for sacred doctrine?  No love of truth?  No interest in FACTS?

Stop making things up out of whole cloth and go and read something, for heaven's sake.

Quote from: Cupertino

I have all of the above.

No, you don't, or you'd never have stated clearly what I quoted in my reply to you.  You made it up without the slightest support in Catholic authorities.  You made it up.  

Quote from: Cupertino

Quote from: Stubborn

The Church has always presumed the validity of Baptism unless proven otherwise.

True, for those in union with a true pope. Not for men who break away from tradition, as did Protestants, Ecuмenists and Modernists.

I seriously doubt he thinks heretics or schismatics aren't able to perform valid baptisms; I think rather he's trying to say something like this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Practically, converts in the United States are almost invariably baptized either absolutely or conditionally, not because the baptism administered by heretics is held to be invalid, but because it is generally impossible to discover whether they had ever been properly baptized. Even in cases where a ceremony had certainly been performed, reasonable doubt of validity will generally remain, on account of either the intention of the administrator or the mode of administration. Still each case must be examined into (S. C. Inquis., 20 Nov., 1878) lest the sacrament be sacrilegiously repeated.

edit: I type wayyyy too fast

First, when my parents can't even tell me what the Holy Trinity is, like I'm going to trust if they know the valid form for baptism.

Pathetic, so I just asked again; still don't know, and don't want to know. You know things are bad when you're told religion is a choice (yeah, Hell is a choice too, ya know!?)

Can I use the water in my shower for my re-conditional baptism?

Even if trads are right and the NO is everything they say it is, the NO form, matter, and intention at baptism are all fine.  Yes, the same is true of a Lutheran baptism.  I am not aware that the Church has ever said it wasn't.  Baptisms can be validly performed by pagans if the simply intend to do what the Church does.  

And, although I don't think a presumption of invalidity is warranted on the part of the SSPX, I can see why they would be more likely to conditionally administer conformation than baptism.  Confirmation is much easier to screw up.

I understand what you mean and agree that a blanket presumption of invalidity is not warranted.

Although revolutionary chaos reigns now, and some of the lunatic clerics in the Novus Ordo do not use the form for Baptism but instead they make changes to it which according the the theology manuals would be invalidating. Sometimes they do not even pour the water over the forehead whilst saying their "form".

They also sometimes make statements during the baptismal ceremonies that manifest that they do not intend to do what the Church does.

The Protestants of earlier ages were better at sticking to the form than some of the Novus clerics are. In fact one could arguably be better off if they were baptised by an indifferent Jєω or non-believer in an emergency, than having the NO ceremony because genuine mistakes aside the common Jєω or non-believer would probably more faithfully stick to the form if it was presented to them than some of those Novus clerics of a certain bent.

However for those people who have been baptised in the NO Church I think that traditional priests know how to investigate and try to determine what course of action is required, if any. Most traditional priests would also have more than adequate solicitude for people who come to the from the Novus Wastelands.

Quote from: curiouscatholic23

Can I use the water in my shower for my re-conditional baptism?

What, do you intend to attempt to baptise yourself? If not why are you asking about water from your shower? Surely you have another faucett at your dwelling?

And what is the rush all of the sudden; why act rashly and foolishly?

Why not learn what you should do (or not do) first?

And didn't you say you have a priest you can consult?

Are you for real, or are you trying to have a lend of people here?

I had a friend just do it. We used tap water from the refrigerator. I thougt it was essential to get it done ASAP.

And yes, I am for real.

Quote from: GertrudetheGreat

Quote from: Cupertino

I have all of the above.

No, you don't, or you'd never have stated clearly what I quoted in my reply to you.  You made it up without the slightest support in Catholic authorities.  You made it up.  

Quote from: Cupertino

Quote from: Stubborn

The Church has always presumed the validity of Baptism unless proven otherwise.

True, for those in union with a true pope. Not for men who break away from tradition, as did Protestants, Ecuмenists and Modernists.

I seriously doubt he thinks heretics or schismatics aren't able to perform valid baptisms; I think rather he's trying to say something like this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Quote

Practically, converts in the United States are almost invariably baptized either absolutely or conditionally, not because the baptism administered by heretics is held to be invalid, but because it is generally impossible to discover whether they had ever been properly baptized. Even in cases where a ceremony had certainly been performed, reasonable doubt of validity will generally remain, on account of either the intention of the administrator or the mode of administration. Still each case must be examined into (S. C. Inquis., 20 Nov., 1878) lest the sacrament be sacrilegiously repeated.

edit: I type wayyyy too fast

Yes, from the excerpt above:

Still each case must be examined into (S. C. Inquis., 20 Nov., 1878) lest the sacrament be sacrilegiously repeated.