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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Santo Subito on November 04, 2012, 03:27:33 PM

Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Santo Subito on November 04, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
How does St. Paul know that Clement and the rest if his fellow laborers are already in the book of life? Doesn't this support the Prot notion of assurance of salvation? I thought only those who are saved will have their names in the book of life? If so, how can St. Paul say those who live are already assured salvation?
Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Stephen Francis on November 04, 2012, 04:06:21 PM
+JMJ+

Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life CAN have their names blotted out. Moses asked God to blot his name from the Book if God would spare the Israelites instead. Our Lord Jesus specifically says that there are those whose names will never be blotted out, thus assuming the reality that some names DO get blotted out.

If St. Paul was referring to people still alive, he was speaking of them as in the state of sanctifying grace. That state, of course, could (and perhaps did) change during their lifetimes. If St. Paul was referring to people already deceased, then he was referring to those whom he could fairly safely assume had died in the state of grace and were indeed included among the elect of God. Whether or not those people had already attained Heaven and the Beatific Vision (with or without purgation first) is unknown and indeed cannot be known in most cases.

Santo, what you need to be VERY careful of is taking passages of Holy Scripture out of their context. Context is NOT just the framework of the immediate written surroundings of a text; Context is much, much larger and more comprehensive than most people realize.

St. Paul's words are his own, and as such have a context within his theological and pastoral teachings. That could be called an orthodox (small o) Christian context.

St. Paul's words are those of an Apostle, and as such have greater weight than those of a layperson or even a pastor of a local congregation. There is, therefore, an Apostolic context to his words, which carry the weight of infallibility insofar as the Holy Ghost inspired the writing of the letters which comprise Scripture.

St. Paul's words (at least THESE words, anyway; we have no idea how many more communications there surely must have been over a lengthy lifetime and ministry) are part of the Canon of Scripture, and therefore have a context for that reason as well. They must be (and are) consonant with the ENTIRE revelation of Scripture.

Finally, for my post anyway, St. Paul's words in Scripture are a CATHOLIC writing, not a Protestant writing or a pan-Christian or pan-spiritual writing. There is, then, of course, a Catholic context (a 'sensus Catholicus') within which his words reside.

I hope this makes private interpretation (of which selective verse-choosing is a definite part and symptom) more clearly dangerous to you. The thing which I have heard referred to as "proof-text poker" is deadly to the life of your soul.

'You have your three verses seemingly supporting X doctrine; I have seven verses that I allege are in favor of the opposite position.' In those instances, those who believe they can make a more comprehensive verse-by-verse case for their (erroneous) doctrines think they have 'won' the argument.

Please refer to a traditional Catholic commentary on St. Paul's writings instead of looking to engender fruitless disputes. Those who are humbly submitted to Holy Church and Her right to own and interpret Scripture should have no interest at all in wresting random verses out of their proper context in order to support heresies of the Prot or any other variety.

St. Thomas Aquinas, faithful teacher of Holy Scripture, pray for us.

Mary, Help of Christians, pray for us.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Hobbledehoy on November 04, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: Santo Subito
How does St. Paul know that Clement and the rest if his fellow laborers are already in the book of life? Doesn't this support the Prot notion of assurance of salvation? I thought only those who are saved will have their names in the book of life? If so, how can St. Paul say those who live are already assured salvation?




I hope the following can shed light on your question: from the great Rev. Father Cornelius  J. Ryan's The Epistles of the Sundays and Festivals with an Introduction, Notes and Moral Reflections, (Vol. II; Dublin: M. H. Gill and Son, Ltd., 1932), here is a commentary upon the Epistle lesson for the Mass of the twenty-third Sunday after Pentecost (begin at the bottom of the first page presented herein and conclude with the uppermost portion of the last page, before the "Moral Reflections").




(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Texts/Even%20More%20Sacred%20Texts/Epistle23rdSafP6.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Texts/Even%20More%20Sacred%20Texts/Epistle23rdSafP7.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Texts/Even%20More%20Sacred%20Texts/Epistle23rdSafP8.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Texts/Even%20More%20Sacred%20Texts/Epistle23rdSafP9.jpg)
Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Santo Subito on November 05, 2012, 04:52:04 PM
Thank you both. That does help clarify.

However, that leads to another question.

If one's name can be blotted out of the book of life,
what is the purpose of keeping the book? And I ask this in all seriousness.
Are names dropping in and out of the book upon
every mortal sin and confession?

Is the book just a metaphor for state of grace? Thanks.
Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Quo Vadis Petre on November 05, 2012, 05:18:53 PM
Yes, it is a metaphor for being in the state of grace.
Title: Epistle Today: Clements Name in Book of Life?
Post by: Hobbledehoy on November 05, 2012, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: Santo Subito
If one's name can be blotted out of the book of life,
what is the purpose of keeping the book? And I ask this in all seriousness.
Are names dropping in and out of the book upon
every mortal sin and confession?

Is the book just a metaphor for state of grace? Thanks.


Here is something you may find interesting.

From the treatise De veritate of the Angelic Doctor, englished as Truth: Translated from the Definitive Leonine Text (Vol. I, trans. Rev. Fr. Robert W. Mulligan, S.J.; Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, 1952).

Unfortunately, I cannot scan and upload the entire section.




(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4494.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4495.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4496.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4497.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4498.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4499.jpg)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/SCAN4500.jpg)