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Author Topic: End to the State of Necessity  (Read 4308 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: End to the State of Necessity
« Reply #105 on: Yesterday at 12:35:25 PM »
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  • Some commenters will do anything except be honest in able to dismiss the inconvenient truth.

    I never said the Latin Rite will deteriorate. It already has. That took place when the Novus Ordo Mass was forced on tye dioceses.

    Instead, I am saying that the Byzantine seeds are planted enough to grow into a legitimate defense of the Faith against the modern crisis. The SSPX, Resistance and some Sede Vacantist groups have accepted perpetual crisis management when the Truth is not that dark. Valid Catholic bishops and priests exist outside the structure of SSPX and they never became Modernists.

    It’s hard to accept that one specific group isn’t going to save the Church for one certain group. It actually perpetuates the Crisis to some degree.
    Your base argument is still flawed...that the Church (i.e. Trads in the West) simply abandon the Latin Rite and switch to Eastern rites.

    b.  Tradition in the Latin Rite is still a legit defense of the Faith, same as the Eastern rite.
    c.  Yes, there is a "perpetual" crisis until there's not.  God decides when it's over, not us.

    I still don't get your whole outlook.  You found the Eastern rite and you like it.  GREAT!  Spread the word to as many people as you want.

    But why do you feel the need to trash Western Tradition?  Just leave us alone and we'll let God handle it.  You go be Eastern and do your thing.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 12:48:57 PM »
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  • That’s a non-argument. Keeping a liturgy isn’t the claim, and bringing up “indulters” is a dodge meant to avoid the real issue. The question is doctrinal mutation, not ritual survival. Show where the Byzantine Churches redefined dogma, sacramental ontology, or ecclesiology. You can’t, because it didn’t happen. Pointing to disgruntled individuals, bad bishops, or internal suffering proves nothing—every orthodox body in history has suffered under corrupt hierarchs. That never determined catholicity. If persecution by modernists were the test of heresy, the entire pre-Nicene Church would fail. What you’re calling “romance” is simply refusing to confuse abuse, discipline, or politics with dogma. You’re arguing vibes because you don’t have definitions.


    It's the supreme argument.

    The ultimate goal of canon law and of the Church is the salvation of souls.

    By aligning with Modernist authorities, the Easterns who obeyed Modernist Rome, put the Faith of theif faithful in danger. This is unacceptable. 


    This trumps every thing else. And every other argument you can give.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #107 on: Yesterday at 01:02:28 PM »
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  • Your base argument is still flawed...that the Church (i.e. Trads in the West) simply abandon the Latin Rite and switch to Eastern rites.

    b.  Tradition in the Latin Rite is still a legit defense of the Faith, same as the Eastern rite.
    c.  Yes, there is a "perpetual" crisis until there's not.  God decides when it's over, not us.

    I still don't get your whole outlook.  You found the Eastern rite and you like it.  GREAT!  Spread the word to as many people as you want.

    But why do you feel the need to trash Western Tradition?  Just leave us alone and we'll let God handle it.  You go be Eastern and do your thing.

    You, again, ascribe an argument to me a really never made and I have stated, “do not change rites”. I sincerely do not want Modern Trad Cats to change rites. The Latin Rite exists for a reason. And it is arguably the most beautiful rite. 

    The closest thing to that argument is when I stated that the Byzantine Church held the answer to the Crisis and I stand by that. I believe it does. Its theme is healing through the Eucharist and this broken world needs healing. The Latin Rite was severely compromised and fragmented. What will happen is not anything this forum can force.

    It’s an inconvenient truth and as a result the last several pages have led to me using energies in defending against:
    -the same repeated false positions set up as my own over and over again
    -false accusations of orthodoxy, liberalism, schism, AI, opposing the Latin Rite, drinking the kool aid and being a flip flip
    -unbecoming and unmannered ways of modern societal talks and slanders. 

    I’ve said all I want to say here. For commenters to continue to post defamatory or false positions is not intelligence, it’s just arrogance parading online for dopamine. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #108 on: Yesterday at 01:06:18 PM »
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  • -false accusations of orthodoxy, liberalism, schism, AI, opposing the Latin Rite, drinking the kool aid and being a flip flip
    -unbecoming and unmannered ways of modern societal talks and slanders.
    The bold part is a lie, Centro...You did use AI in this.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #109 on: Yesterday at 01:12:26 PM »
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  • ...
    The specific state of necessity I am talking about does not concern access to Mass for the laity. It concerns the extension of that necessity to episcopal consecrations.

    ...

    Name the Easter Rite Bishops that are willing to ordain priests for the SSPX, or are willing to consecrate a bishop for them, even without Papal approval?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #110 on: Yesterday at 01:14:36 PM »
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  • The bold part is a lie, Centro...You did use AI in this.
    I don’t understand explicitly what you are accusing me of. Every google search is now A.I. A.I is built into most internet interfaces. 

    I was referring to the post that said my A.I. was circling and another that said because it was not me, it was A.I. One of those even quoted the post. 

    This is becoming childish. Every user on here uses google and A.I. built into that. My responses were genuine, my own and shared my own personal experiences. Saying they are A.I. is false and defamatory. Any honest reader can see that. 

    I will now argue with a handycap to even the playing field. I will no longer use google, A.I. engines, search bars, online Encyclopedias, word, Pages, notes or any other message editing interface. 

    Is it fair now?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #111 on: Yesterday at 01:18:03 PM »
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  • Name the Easter Rite Bishops that are willing to ordain priests for the SSPX, or are willing to consecrate a bishop for them, even without Papal approval?

    The SSPX should induct the Resistance bishops into their ranks. But unity is viewed much differently in modern Latin Rite Trad Cat circles. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #112 on: Yesterday at 01:23:31 PM »
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  • This is becoming childish. Every user on here uses google and A.I. built into that. My responses were genuine, my own and shared my own personal experiences. 

    I will now argue with a handycap to even the playing field. I will no longer use google, A.I. engines, search bars, online Encyclopedias, word, Pages, notes or any other message editing interface.

    Is it fair now?
    I agree. that running away from the question is childish. I also have no problem at all with you using AI. My point is only that you shouldn't then get upset when others say you are throwing out "AI slop", or be surprised if some of us start to see a certain pattern in your word choices that closely mirrors AI. I think you using AI is actually for the best. Without it I do not think you will do well against my example of rupture in Canon 671, lets continue where we left of shall we?

    The charge of “private judgment” misunderstands the point entirely. The argument I presented was not based on personal authority, nor on dismissing clergy or lived experience, but on pre‑Vatican II magisterial teaching, which explicitly tied sacramental discipline to dogma. Before the Council, the Church consistently taught—through Trent, Leo XIII, Pius XI, and the 1917 Code—that the sacraments belong to the visible unity of the Church and cannot be given to those who publicly remain outside that unity. That is not my invention; it is the Church’s own theological framework. To restate what the Church taught for centuries is not “appointing oneself pope,” but simply acknowledging what the magisterium itself said.

    The claim that pointing out doctrinal principles is an attack on the Byzantine Churches is also misplaced. The Eastern Catholic Churches are fully Catholic, but they were bound by the same pre‑conciliar dogmatic principles regarding sacramental unity as the Latin Church. Their ancient liturgical and theological heritage was always honored, but they did not possess a parallel magisterium with a different ecclesiology. To say that sacramental discipline flowed from dogma is not an insult to the East; it is a recognition that the Catholic Church—East and West—shared one faith and one sacramental theology before the Council.

    Finally, the accusation of insecurity or absolutism avoids the real issue: either sacramental discipline expresses dogma, or it does not. Pre‑Vatican II theology held that it does. That is why the Church forbade communicatio in sacris. To point out that a later discipline cannot be reconciled with earlier dogmatic principles is not emotionalism or defensiveness; it is simply taking the Church’s own pre‑conciliar teaching seriously. If dogma governs sacramental discipline, then changes in discipline must be evaluated in light of dogma—not dismissed as “paperwork,” and not reduced to personal preference. By accepting Canon 671,  the Easterners deny dogma. They might not practice this denial across the board, but they have made peace with Belial by receiving this heretical, false law into their canons.





    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #113 on: Yesterday at 01:54:03 PM »
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  • Your claim here is that the Roman Church issued Canon 671 in their Code of Canon Law. It involves what could be considered communicatio in sacris. I doubt you knew the term last week. You claim that because this defective Canon Law of 1983 exists and specific bishops of the Eastern Rites did not speak loudly enough for your approval, they are therefore non-Catholic heretics and outside the Church.

    Your level of understanding is a waste of time to me. I’ve already dismantled this claim and similar claims on this thread. I will repeat them one last time. Not for your benefit. I do not believe you are capable of benefiting from it at this time.

    The Byzantine Church does not accept docuмents from Rome as its “Faith”. It accepts what has been absorbed into its liturgical prayer as Faith. It accepts what it teaches its Faithful through its prayer life. Lex orandi, lex credendi est. It is operative in the Byzantine world, not something written in a manual.

    For those of us that have been in Tradition long enough to remember Michael Davies and the Ottoviani Intervention, lex orandi, lex credendi was huge in pioneer Traditionalists arguments against the Novus Ordo Missæ. That’s why it is so fundamental here.

    To actually think that, “Canon Law published in Rome says ‘such and such’ so from now on all Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely wrote off” is not an argument worthy of any real response. It’s not a “gotcha” moment. It’s weak. And emits weakness and lack of understanding.

    What google search engines and A.I interfaces do is amplify intelligence…or lack thereof.

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 01:56:21 PM »
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  • You, again, ascribe an argument to me a really never made and I have stated, “do not change rites”. 

    The closest thing to that argument is when I stated that the Byzantine Church held the answer to the Crisis and I stand by that. 
    :facepalm:  You don't see the contradiction in your 2 statements?

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #115 on: Yesterday at 01:58:54 PM »
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  • Your claim here is that the Roman Church issued Canon 671 in their Code of Canon Law. It involves what could be considered communicatio in sacris. I doubt you knew the term last week. You claim that because this defective Canon Law of 1983 exists and specific bishops of the Eastern Rites did not speak loudly enough for your approval, they are therefore non-Catholic heretics and outside the Church.

    Your level of understanding is a waste of time to me. I’ve already dismantled this claim and similar claims on this thread. I will repeat them one last time. Not for your benefit. I do not believe you are capable of benefiting from it at this time.

    The Byzantine Church does not accept docuмents from Rome as its “Faith”. It accepts what has been absorbed into its liturgical prayer as Faith. It accepts what it teaches its Faithful through its prayer life. Lex orandi, lex credendi est. It is operative in the Byzantine world, not something written in a manual.

    For those of us that have been in Tradition long enough to remember Michael Davies and the Ottoviani Intervention, lex orandi, lex credendi was huge in pioneer Traditionalists arguments against the Novus Ordo Missæ. That’s why it is so fundamental here.

    To actually think that Canon Law published in Rome says such and such so from now on all Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely wrote off is not an argument worthy of any real response. It’s not a “gotcha” moment. It’s weak. And emits weakness and lack of understanding.

    What google search engines and A.I interfaces do is amplify intelligence…or lack thereof.
    No, it's the in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches :facepalm:

    Quote
    Canon 671 - §1. Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to Catholic Christian faithful,
    who, likewise, licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.
    §2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of
    error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or
    morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist
    and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
    §3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing
    of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian
    faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition
    as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.
    §4. If there is a danger of death or another matter of serious necessity in the judgment of the eparchial
    bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church or the council of hierarchs, Catholic ministers licitly
    administer the same sacraments also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic
    Church, who cannot approach the ministers of their own ecclesial communities and who request them on
    their own, provided they manifest a faith consonant with that of the Catholic Church concerning these
    sacraments and are rightly disposed.
    §5. For the cases in §§2, 3 and 4, norms of particular law are to be enacted only after consultation with at
    least the local competent authority of the non-Catholic Church or ecclesial community concerned.

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #116 on: Yesterday at 02:05:14 PM »
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  • No, it's the in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches :facepalm:

    Thanks for that clarification. He’s talking about the CCEO. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #117 on: Yesterday at 02:07:20 PM »
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  • Canon 1 of the CCEO, (Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium, or Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches) for reference:


    Quote
    Canon 1 - The canons of this Code affect all and solely the Eastern Catholic Churches, unless, with
    regard to relations with the Latin Church, it is expressly stated otherwise.

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #118 on: Yesterday at 02:08:20 PM »
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  • Thanks for that clarification. He’s talking about the CCEO.
    Right, which is the Code of Canons of the Eastern (Catholic) Churches 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #119 on: Yesterday at 02:12:44 PM »
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  • Your claim here is that the Roman Church issued Canon 671 in their Code of Canon Law. It involves what could be considered communicatio in sacris. I doubt you knew the term last week. You claim that because this defective Canon Law of 1983 exists and specific bishops of the Eastern Rites did not speak loudly enough for your approval, they are therefore non-Catholic heretics and outside the Church.
    No, my claim is that the Eastern churches accept that heretical law into THEIR LAWS. Ironic that it is from me that you even find this out... Maybe you should study the Eastern Canons more, or will you dismiss Canon Law as some meaningless trifle, or maybe you would like to take the Fr. Hαɾɾιson route and defend the Vatican II sect's laws tooth and nail? Is that what sounds good to you Centro, argue like our enemies, take up the weapons of those who hate tradition in order to defend your position? But are those arguments even cogent - of course not!