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Author Topic: End to the State of Necessity  (Read 3549 times)

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Online Centroamerica

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Re: End to the State of Necessity
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 07:58:06 AM »
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  • They (besides the Roumanians) have all traditionally used an older language.

    Gihr, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (1902), § "The Language Used in the Celebration of the Holy Mass":

    You’re missing the point Gihr is actually making.


    Those languages were living when adopted. They were not dead languages. They became sacralized because the liturgy was preserved, not because the Church kept chasing whatever people spoke next. That’s the opposite of post-Vatican II vernacularization.

    The Byzantine Churches didn’t switch languages by policy, theory, or pastoral ideology. They evangelized in a language, fixed it in worship, and then refused to tinker with it. That’s why Slavonic, Syriac, Armenian, etc. fossilized liturgically while spoken language moved on.

    So no, citing that these languages later became “dead” doesn’t refute anything. It confirms the Eastern principle: once received into worship, the faith is guarded by stability, not constant adaptation.

    That’s precisely why Vatican II–style vernacular reform never translated into Eastern liturgical change.


    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 09:16:29 AM »
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  • The East truly holds the answer to the crisis.
    Yes.

    That is, if their answer is to remain silent in the face of apostasy, heresy, and schism, then yes, "The East truly holds the answer..."

    "He who does not call others back from error when he can, demonstrates that he himself is in error. " - Pope Leo I

    If the East wanted to demonstrate in real-time what Pope Leo I was saying above, they nailed it!


    Online Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 09:39:44 AM »
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  • Yes.

    That is, if their answer is to remain silent in the face of apostasy, heresy, and schism, then yes, "The East truly holds the answer..."

    "He who does not call others back from error when he can, demonstrates that he himself is in error. " - Pope Leo I

    If the East wanted to demonstrate in real-time what Pope Leo I was saying above, they nailed it!


    Vatican 2 did not re-write the Nicene Creed and then try to stick it into their Divine Liturgy. That was done before Vatican 2 by the Latin Rite Church. It altered its own Liturgy by re-writing a different Creed and attaching it to its Mass and telling the world it was Nicene.

    The Latin Church alters its form of worship and its Creeds at will. Then when called out about it provokes schisms. Instead of expecting the Byzantine Church to clean up the Latin rite’s V2 mess, how about a little accountability.

    Silence at this point is the most prudent. The test of time will prove which Rite survives the future Church.


    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 09:44:57 AM »
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  • Silence at this point is the most prudent.
    No.

    It is a simple affirmation of their complicity in the revolution.

    They can keep all their chants and incense, they don't stand up for the faith, so they are to be lumped in with the traitors.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 09:50:37 AM »
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  • Centroamerica, are (were) you not a Sedevacantist?


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 09:58:42 AM »
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  • Sounds like he's on his way to the Orthodox. Time to dust off those Kallistos Ware books...

    Online Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #51 on: Yesterday at 10:24:49 AM »
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  • Centroamerica, are (were) you not a Sedevacantist?

    I was born into SSPX circles. Attended Mass regularly at the seminary in Winona when the resistance had it’s hot summer and Fr. Pfeifer showed up. 

    In Latin America I got very close to the resistance, Bishop Williamson and his bishops. 

    In 2017 I moved back to the States with my wife and started attending at a CMRI church. At the same time as that was happening, Fr. Rodrigo has a providential meeting with Bishop Daniel Dolan. I visited SGG, met Fr. Cekada and Bishop Dolan. Attended two episcopal consecrations at St. Gertrude the Great. 

    Fr. Hesse and the priests at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary had a huge impression on my formation. As I grew up in SSPX circles, I always made it a point to understand the arguments and the crisis. The SSPX and groups in line with them held a belief regarding formal/material heresy. Fr. Hesse articulated this the best and promised he would become a sedevacantist if the pope ever canonized Martin Luther. 

    After Bergoglio, that position was quietly discarded. Then, suddenly, books began being written in multiple languages arguing in favor of the possibility of a heretic pope. Catholic Canon Law of 1917 canon 188 cites explicitly cuм Ex Apostolatus, but Latin Rite Catholics use deception to promote their clique. 

    I kept analyzing positions and seeing what group kept everything authentic. 

    When I discovered the protections built into the Byzantine Church, I realized its power over the crisis. 

    I looked into its theology and pysche. 

    Then I noticed something I had questioned and needed to find the answer.
    Why does every Divine Liturgy “missal” have a page taped over the Nicene Creed?
    Then, I realized, everything Traditionalists Latin Catholics tell us about the East is wrong. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #52 on: Yesterday at 10:30:32 AM »
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  • Someone had mentioned that the Latin rite was 99.9 percent of the Church. People will make up and post anything that comes to mind.

    I said that but it looks like I was off by about 1%.  According to AI -





    Offline Matthew

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #53 on: Yesterday at 10:59:28 AM »
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  • 2. The Easterns have all accepted Vatican II and "reforms" to their liturgy.

    This.

    Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

    Whoever wrote that article is extremely high on himself. "Everyone but me is stupid." The type of guy who is cool with being the only smart guy, one of the only true Catholics left, etc. It takes a lot of pride to be willing and able to go to such a place.
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    Online Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 11:17:25 AM »
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  • This.

    Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

    Whoever wrote that article is extremely high on himself. "Everyone but me is stupid." The type of guy who is cool with being the only smart guy, one of the only true Catholics left, etc. It takes a lot of pride to be willing and able to go to such a place.

    Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table. 

    You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 11:23:33 AM »
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  • Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table.

    You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.


    Operation survival was to save the sacraments and the faith.

    Those who wanted just the TLM became the Fraternity of St. Peter.

    You are so ignorant of the history here, its painful.


    Online Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #56 on: Yesterday at 11:27:51 AM »
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  • Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

    This just confirms for me what I wanted to know. I am early. Not to say there hasn’t been a falling in love with the Eastern rites by Trads already. But they haven’t discovered in a 2007 sense, thankfully. 

    What I am saying Matthew, is that I am early. And I can’t wait for the Sean Johnson’s out there to catch up. 

    When Trads see how fragmented, petty and divisive the Latin rite clergy have really become, with open eyes and discover the truth about the Byzantine Liturgy and Church history, the tide will change. 

     The Solemn High Mass of the Latin Rite Liturgy is probably the most beautiful expression of the Mass, but its priests have a problem with division, effeminacy and arrogance. I sincerely believe the East can heal the Church. 

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #57 on: Yesterday at 11:29:05 AM »
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  • Operation survival was to save the sacraments and the faith.

    Those who wanted just the TLM became the Fraternity of St. Peter.

    You are so ignorant of the history here, its painful.

    The Faith never needed to be saved by Latin Trad cats. That is the truth you cannot see. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online ArmandLouis

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #58 on: Yesterday at 11:34:08 AM »
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  • Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table.

    You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.
    Operation Survival was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s definitive act to preserve the Catholic Faith intact by rejecting any canonical recognition from Modernist Rome conditioned - explicitly or implicitly - upon acceptance of the Second Vatican Council, even “with reservations,” and by consecrating bishops to ensure the uninterrupted transmission of Catholic Tradition without compromise.
    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 11:59:19 AM »
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  • 1. Archbishop Lefebvre's saintly life, led by Providence, was about preserving the Catholic Faith, not just the "Latin Mass"

    2. The fact that God personally formed and chose a Roman Rite bishop to be His instrument shows that the Roman Rite has a special role to play in the preservation of the Faith during the current Crisis in the Church.
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