Author Topic: End to the State of Necessity (Read 9067 times)

Centroamerica · « **Reply #45 on:** January 07, 2026, 10:24:49 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 07, 2026, 09:50:37 AM

Centroamerica, are (were) you not a Sedevacantist?

I was born into SSPX circles. Attended Mass regularly at the seminary in Winona when the resistance had it’s hot summer and Fr. Pfeifer showed up.

In Latin America I got very close to the resistance, Bishop Williamson and his bishops.

In 2017 I moved back to the States with my wife and started attending at a CMRI church. At the same time as that was happening, Fr. Rodrigo has a providential meeting with Bishop Daniel Dolan. I visited SGG, met Fr. Cekada and Bishop Dolan. Attended two episcopal consecrations at St. Gertrude the Great.

Fr. Hesse and the priests at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary had a huge impression on my formation. As I grew up in SSPX circles, I always made it a point to understand the arguments and the crisis. The SSPX and groups in line with them held a belief regarding formal/material heresy. Fr. Hesse articulated this the best and promised he would become a sedevacantist if the pope ever canonized Martin Luther.

After Bergoglio, that position was quietly discarded. Then, suddenly, books began being written in multiple languages arguing in favor of the possibility of a heretic pope. Catholic Canon Law of 1917 canon 188 cites explicitly cuм Ex Apostolatus, but Latin Rite Catholics use deception to promote their clique.

I kept analyzing positions and seeing what group kept everything authentic.

When I discovered the protections built into the Byzantine Church, I realized its power over the crisis.

I looked into its theology and pysche.

Then I noticed something I had questioned and needed to find the answer.
Why does every Divine Liturgy “missal” have a page taped over the Nicene Creed?
Then, I realized, everything Traditionalists Latin Catholics tell us about the East is wrong.

MiracleOfTheSun · « **Reply #46 on:** January 07, 2026, 10:30:32 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica on January 07, 2026, 05:44:12 AM

Someone had mentioned that the Latin rite was 99.9 percent of the Church. People will make up and post anything that comes to mind.

I said that but it looks like I was off by about 1%. According to AI -

Matthew · « **Reply #47 on:** January 07, 2026, 10:59:28 AM »

Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on January 06, 2026, 08:14:54 AM

2. The Easterns have all accepted Vatican II and "reforms" to their liturgy.

This.

Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

Whoever wrote that article is extremely high on himself. "Everyone but me is stupid." The type of guy who is cool with being the only smart guy, one of the only true Catholics left, etc. It takes a lot of pride to be willing and able to go to such a place.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #48 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:17:25 AM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 07, 2026, 10:59:28 AM

This.

Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

Whoever wrote that article is extremely high on himself. "Everyone but me is stupid." The type of guy who is cool with being the only smart guy, one of the only true Catholics left, etc. It takes a lot of pride to be willing and able to go to such a place.

Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table.

You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.

TomGubbinsKimmage · « **Reply #49 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:23:33 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica on January 07, 2026, 11:17:25 AM

Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table.

You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.

Operation survival was to save the sacraments and the faith.

Those who wanted just the TLM became the Fraternity of St. Peter.

You are so ignorant of the history here, its painful.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #50 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:27:51 AM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 07, 2026, 10:59:28 AM

Something so fundamental couldn't have been missed by thousands of "Traditional Catholic Movement" pioneers, priests, bishops, etc. over the past FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

This just confirms for me what I wanted to know. I am early. Not to say there hasn’t been a falling in love with the Eastern rites by Trads already. But they haven’t discovered in a 2007 sense, thankfully.

What I am saying Matthew, is that I am early. And I can’t wait for the Sean Johnson’s out there to catch up.

When Trads see how fragmented, petty and divisive the Latin rite clergy have really become, with open eyes and discover the truth about the Byzantine Liturgy and Church history, the tide will change.

The Solemn High Mass of the Latin Rite Liturgy is probably the most beautiful expression of the Mass, but its priests have a problem with division, effeminacy and arrogance. I sincerely believe the East can heal the Church.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #51 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:29:05 AM »

Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on January 07, 2026, 11:23:33 AM

Operation survival was to save the sacraments and the faith.

Those who wanted just the TLM became the Fraternity of St. Peter.

You are so ignorant of the history here, its painful.

The Faith never needed to be saved by Latin Trad cats. That is the truth you cannot see.

ArmandLouis · « **Reply #52 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:34:08 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica on January 07, 2026, 11:17:25 AM

Operation Survival was to save the Latin Rite Mass. The part you seem to be agreeing with, that the Liturgies of the Byzantine rite have been altered with Modernism because of Vatican 2, that is substantially false. I would ask you to investigate for yourself. And if you still have that conclusion, bring it and its facts to the debate table.

You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.

Operation Survival was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s definitive act to preserve the Catholic Faith intact by rejecting any canonical recognition from Modernist Rome conditioned - explicitly or implicitly - upon acceptance of the Second Vatican Council, even “with reservations,” and by consecrating bishops to ensure the uninterrupted transmission of Catholic Tradition without compromise.

Matthew · « **Reply #53 on:** January 07, 2026, 11:59:19 AM »

1. Archbishop Lefebvre's saintly life, led by Providence, was about preserving the Catholic Faith, not just the "Latin Mass"

2. The fact that God personally formed and chose a Roman Rite bishop to be His instrument shows that the Roman Rite has a special role to play in the preservation of the Faith during the current Crisis in the Church.

Matthew · « **Reply #54 on:** January 07, 2026, 12:04:56 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica on January 07, 2026, 11:17:25 AM

You or any Latin Rite Resistance priest or bishop. Their arguments do not hold water if you truly learn the East, which takes a lifetime.

That is insane to me.

We're not talking about timeless things like Truth, Goodness or Beauty -- but "East". Guess what? I'm not from the East. I'm 100% Western. I grew up at a Traditional Catholic (Roman Rite) chapel. I am a native born American citizen, born in the Midwest. My heritage is Irish and German, and other misc. European. NO PART OF ME is Eastern.

God doesn't expect hippos to live among hyenas, and He doesn't expect me to join some culture that is 100% foreign to me -- as a requirement of keeping my Faith.

Why do you think I'm pro-Roman Rite? Because I was surfing the web and clicked that link instead of the Eastern Rite link next to it? NO!
I was RAISED that way by my elders -- my parents, teachers, uncles, etc. The way God designed it. Faith comes by hearing. And physical, human teachers are the way God intended for us to learn. It's why He gave us parents.

Saying things like "learn the East" that "takes a lifetime" reeks of fetishizing the East, which so many white men have done. Some have gone overseas to find spouses, others to pursue their curiosity (various Eastern medicine, philosophy, martial arts, etc.) But in the end, it's just a fetish. It's kind of crazy when you stop and think about it. Behold the 6 foot tall, or muscular/stocky middle aged white guy hanging out in Thailand with a bunch of short skinny Asians, pretending to be Asian. And white guys can be smart, so they do a good job of learning the language and culture. But what went wrong? Why did he reject his own culture and identity? What crisis happened in the man's life, to make him change his "identity" so drastically? In the end, regardless of the circuмstances, It's not natural or normal.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #55 on:** January 07, 2026, 12:13:02 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 07, 2026, 12:04:56 PM

That is insane to me.

We're not talking about timeless things like Truth, Goodness or Beauty -- but "East". Guess what? I'm not from the East. I'm 100% Western. I grew up at a Traditional Catholic (Roman Rite) chapel. I am a native born American citizen, born in the Midwest. My heritage is Irish and German, and other misc. European. NO PART OF ME is Eastern.

God doesn't expect hippos to live among hyenas, and He doesn't expect me to join some culture that is 100% foreign to me -- as a requirement of keeping my Faith.

Why do you think I'm pro-Roman Rite? Because I was surfing the web and clicked that link instead of the Eastern Rite link next to it? NO!
I was RAISED that way by my elders -- my parents, teachers, uncles, etc. The way God designed it.

Saying things like "learn the East" that "takes a lifetime" reeks of fetishizing the East, which so many white men have done. Some have gone overseas to find spouses, others to pursue their curiosity (various Eastern medicine, philosophy, martial arts, etc.) But in the end, it's just a fetish. It's kind of crazy when you stop and think about it. Behold the 6 foot tall, or muscular/stocky middle aged white guy hanging out in Thailand with a bunch of short skinny Asians, pretending to be Asian. And white guys can be smart, so they do a good job of learning the language and culture. But what went wrong? Why did he reject his own culture and identity? What crisis happened in the man's life, to make him change his "identity" so drastically? In the end, regardless of the circuмstances, It's not natural or normal.

Matthew, I know you are a balanced thinker, and I’m going to answer this plainly and honestly, not rhetorically.

When I say “learn the East,” I am not talking about ethnicity, race, fetish, cosplay, or identity substitution, and I think you know that. I am talking about an ecclesial tradition with its own theological grammar, historical memory, and mode of receiving doctrine that is not interchangeable with the Latin resistance framework you and I were both formed in. This has nothing to do with rejecting one’s culture, and everything to do with recognizing that the Catholic Church is not identical to the post-Tridentine Latin experience, especially in how crises are endured.

I am not Eastern by blood, language, or upbringing either. I was raised in the same Latin resistance ecosystem you were, and I took it seriously enough to live inside it, test it, and push its claims to their logical conclusions. What broke my confidence was not attraction to novelty or aesthetics, but the realization that Latin resistance arguments quietly universalize a very specific Western crisis psychology and then judge the rest of the Church by whether it mirrors that posture.

The East does not defend the faith primarily through denunciatory docuмents, polemical manifestos, or juridical theories of emergency. Historically it never has. It preserves doctrine through continuity of worship, ascetical theology, episcopal praxis, and above all through what it refuses to absorb. That is not silence as indifference. That is non-reception as a lived ecclesial act. Those two things are not morally or theologically identical.

Calling this fetishization misses the point entirely. I am not saying the East is superior because it is exotic. I am saying it exposes the limits of a Latin resistance model that assumes the only faithful response to crisis is constant public condemnation in a particular register. That assumption is not catholic. It is cultural.

You ask why someone would “reject his own culture.” I am not rejecting the West. I am rejecting the idea that Western modes of crisis management are the sole measure of fidelity. The Church survived Arianism, monothelitism, iconoclasm, and imperial coercion largely through endurance, non-assimilation, and liturgical fidelity, not through every bishop issuing constant denunciations on demand.

If the Eastern Churches had truly accepted doctrinal rupture, you would see it prayed, catechized, and sacramentally enacted. You do not. Their liturgy did not absorb Vatican II’s ambiguities. Their theology did not internalize Latin innovations. Their moral life did not collapse into pastoral experimentation. That matters more than press conferences or public statements.

This is not escapism. It is not identity play. It is recognizing that the Catholic Church is larger than the Latin crisis and older than our arguments about it. I am not asking you to become Eastern. I am asking you to acknowledge that your framework is not exhaustive, and that fidelity does not always wear the same armor.

If that sounds uncomfortable, it should. Crises always expose the limits of our categories.

Matthew · « **Reply #56 on:** January 07, 2026, 01:04:57 PM »

I also would like to have a sane balanced discussion of the matter.

A few points:

1. How could God, you, or anyone else expect me to operate outside the framework, culture, and way of looking at the world that I was formed in? How am I supposed to magically replace my very BIOS, my Operating system, plus all the software that's been installed on me over the past half-century? That is not reasonable to expect. You're not talking about learning a new trick, but a new way of criticism, a new way of thinking, a new worldview, being Eastern instead of Western, etc. That is not a small change, like learning a new language. Again, I would say that is NOT NATURAL.

2. There is question of what you mean by doing the "Traditional Catholic" thing. Specifically, the more bitter zeal variety, vs. the "keep the Faith" and be holy variety. There are a lot of Trads who can't see the forest for the trees, and I wouldn't be surprised if that led to nothing good -- including giving up on the Traditional Movement.
I would wager you haven't been in the best Traditional Catholic circles, and/or you're disillusioned with what you've seen, having moved beyond the ideals and seen a lot of "how the sausage is made" and discovered the "warts and all" -- hoping that the East isn't as bad. But someday you might become disillusioned with the East, and then heaven help you. Beware the long-game of the devil... he just wants to get you, he doesn't care how...

3. You seem to contrast the Roman Rite as being bitter and denouncing, vs. the East just "keeping the liturgy pristine" and "busy over here staying Catholic". Well guess what? My Traditional Catholic chapel is "just keeping the Faith" as well. Our liturgy is 100% consonant with the Catholic Faith, with no corruptions or Modernism. So what advantage do the Eastern Rites have again?

4. As for where our salvation will ultimately come from -- you are welcome to your opinion, as this is classic "doubtful matter". Anything touching on the Crisis is automatically doubtful and NOT dogmatic.

As God is the author of Nature, and God cannot contradict Himself, I can't imagine a world where we're expected to "change our spots" and become something completely other, in order to restore the Church and/or keep the Faith. God isn't going to require the impossible, or the unnatural.

Matthew · « **Reply #57 on:** January 07, 2026, 01:20:05 PM »

Are you sure you want to include the Maronite as one of your ideals? They are extremely liberal. Their churches look like typical average Novus Ordo, with banners and all.

Here is a screenshot from a Maronite church in San Antonio.

Nice how the "youth minister" is a woman, as well as the choir director. Funny how the Maronites also fall under the American curse of "boys don't sing" -- even though that isn't true pretty much everywhere else in the world -- including Lebanon, which is where the Maronites are from

Next photo:
Note they call him "St. John Paul II". That shows how liberal and Modernist-infected they are.
Also note where the church's parishioners came from -- "Lebanon and middle eastern countries". Which is understandable for them. But not for a white boy born in the Midwest USA to a Roman Rite Trad Catholic family.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #58 on:** January 07, 2026, 01:26:59 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 07, 2026, 01:20:05 PM

Are you sure you want to include the Maronite as one of your ideals? They are extremely liberal. Their churches look like typical average Novus Ordo, with banners and all.

Here is a screenshot from a Maronite church in San Antonio.

Nice how the "youth minister" is a woman, as well as the choir director. Funny how the Maronites also fall under the American curse of "boys don't sing" -- even though that isn't true pretty much everywhere else in the world -- including Lebanon, which is where the Maronites are from

Next photo:
Note they call him "St. John Paul II". That shows how liberal and Modernist-infected they are.
Also note where the church's parishioners came from -- "Lebanon and middle eastern countries". Which is understandable for them. But not for a white boy born in the Midwest USA to a Roman Rite Trad Catholic family.

I’m aware of the Maronites being liberal. There’s all kinds of craziness out there. I was talking about the protections I experienced in the Byzantine. I should not conflate the East with the Byzantine rite.

Matthew · « **Reply #59 on:** January 07, 2026, 01:27:42 PM »

I had so many points to make, I forgot the most important one!

5. You seem to be giving up on the Traditional Movement. You are making the same error as Bishop Fellay, worrying about the future, "how we can continue fighting as we have been", feeling like you can't fight much longer, and losing heart.

Bp. Fellay actually said this explicitly. He said we are going to end up like the Old Catholics if we don't change course and do something different.

Your path (I read your pedigree/bio a couple pages back) and to some that might seem extremely well-rounded. But to me, I think maybe you got poisoned by the *kind of* sedevacantists you were hanging out with.

Author Topic: End to the State of Necessity (Read 9067 times)

Centroamerica

Re: End to the State of Necessity

MiracleOfTheSun

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Matthew

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Centroamerica

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TomGubbinsKimmage

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Centroamerica

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Centroamerica

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ArmandLouis

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Matthew

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Matthew

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Centroamerica

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Matthew

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Matthew

Re: End to the State of Necessity

Centroamerica

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Matthew

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