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Author Topic: End to the State of Necessity  (Read 4367 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: End to the State of Necessity
« Reply #120 on: Yesterday at 02:22:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 02:12:44 PM
    No, my claim is that the Eastern Churches accept that heretical law into THEIR LAWS. Ironic that it is from me that you even find this out... Maybe you should study the Eastern Canons more, or will you dismiss Canon Law as some meaningless trifle, or maybe you would like to take the Fr. Hαɾɾιson route and defend the Vatican II sect's laws tooth and nail? Is that what sounds good to you Centro, argue like our enemies, take up the weapons of those who hate tradition in order to defend your position? But are those arguments even cogent - of course not!

    I’m not sure what you think you proved. They have a Code of Canon Law with error that promotes coomunicatio in sacris. 

    Ok. Does the average priest or person in the pew accept that or even know it? At what point do they stop being Catholic? When they find out and study it completely? Of course not. It doesn’t reflect what they actually believe about the Orthodox. And that’s what matters is what they believe. 

    That Code of Canon Law does not condemn them as heretics or schismatics if that is the claim. 
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 02:30:25 PM »
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    • -That Canon does not necessarily equal Communicatio in sacris

    -Participation in non-Catholic religions is not inferred anywhere

    -It is not an observable practice in the Byzantine Church

    -It does not reflect what Byzantine Churches teach and believe about the schismatic churches

    -the existence of that Canon does not mean the Byzantine Church has defected and lost Catholicity. 

    -after much searching this is the most that was found. 

    -the Byzantine Church still maintains the integrity of the Catholic Faith, true worship and valid priesthood

    -no reason to believe that the Byzantine Church has ruptured unity with the Catholic Church has ever existed about this canon 
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #122 on: Yesterday at 02:31:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 02:22:28 PM

    That Code of Canon Law does not condemn them as heretics or schismatics if that is the claim.
    It is a false heretical law - sharing sacraments with non-Catholics is forbidden - it is Divine Law. No one is "condemning" that is for the proper authorities at the proper time. But it is technically to be wedded to heresy and schism. Canon 671 is a denial of dogma at the very foundations of what makes the Church one in unity - a teaching I can see that you have great affection for, the "healing power of the Eucharist", but in the instance of holding communion with heretics then THAT particular Eucharist is based on a lie, the lie is that Catholics can share sacraments with heretics/schismatics that are unrepentant of their heresy/schism - it is to implode Her entire sacramental ecclesiology. You are far too quick to attribute blanket judgments to me. I really don't know who in the Eastern churches may be in the true Church at this point.

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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #123 on: Yesterday at 02:32:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 02:30:25 PM
    -That Canon does not necessarily equal Communicatio in sacris

    -Participation in non-Catholic religions is not inferred anywhere

    -It is not an observable practice in the Byzantine Church

    -It does not reflect what Byzantine Churches teach and believe about the schismatic churches

    -the existence of that Canon does not mean the Byzantine Church has defected and lost Catholicity.

    -after much searching this is the most that was found.

    -the Byzantine Church still maintains the integrity of the Catholic Faith, true worship and valid priesthood

    -no reason to believe that the Byzantine Church has ruptured unity with the Catholic Church has ever existed about this canon
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #124 on: Yesterday at 02:35:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 01:18:03 PM
    The SSPX should induct the Resistance bishops into their ranks. But unity is viewed much differently in modern Latin Rite Trad Cat circles.
    Since the SSPX does not use Resistance Bishop, which Easter Rite Bishop do you know has confirmed that he will do ordinations and consecrations for the SSPX?
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 02:37:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 02:30:25 PM
    -That Canon does not necessarily equal Communicatio in sacris
    So, take up the arguments of the defenders of the Modernist church to perpetuate your claims it is...

    May I ask, have you ever held  Canon 844 of the 1983 code (which appears to be word-for-word the same as Canon 671 of the CCEO) to mean Communicatio in sacris?
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 02:38:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 02:22:28 PM
    I’m not sure what you think you proved. They have a Code of Canon Law with error that promotes coomunicatio in sacris.

    Ok. Does the average priest or person in the pew accept that or even know it? At what point do they stop being Catholic? When they find out and study it completely? Of course not. It doesn’t reflect what they actually believe about the Orthodox. And that’s what matters is what they believe.

    That Code of Canon Law does not condemn them as heretics or schismatics if that is the claim.
    Yeah, I would think the "average" Eastern Catholic priest is taught in seminary who is and is not to be given the Sacraments

    You are given proof that the CCEO, which applies to all Eastern Churches, allows heretics and schismatics to receive the sacraments and your argument is...what, that the average Eastern priest is too ignorant to know this? Are their seminaries deficient in teaching them the current practice of the Church? 

    Giving the sacraments to heretics and schismatics is condemned, and a sacrilege
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 02:42:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 02:31:52 PM
     Canon 671 is a denial of dogma 

    Be specific. Are you claiming that the CCEO 671 is a denial of the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and that the Byzantine Church defected from the Faith when this was published?

    That distinction is really the only objection you can make. But it requires you to interpret their law and show how it is applied by them in a way that supports your conclusions. Otherwise, you can only say that the Byzantine Church has preserved the True Faith. You could say it hasn’t, but it wouldn’t make you a good Catholic. 

    Maybe if you do that, you should apply for a job at the Vatican (or Menzingen or wherever others like you go). 
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 02:49:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 02:42:08 PM
    Be specific. Are you claiming that the CCEO 671 is a denial of the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and that the Byzantine Church defected from the Faith when this was published?

    That distinction is really the only objection you can make. But it requires you to interpret their law and show how it is applied by them in a way that supports your conclusions. Otherwise, you can only say that the Byzantine Church has preserved the True Faith. You could say it hasn’t, but it wouldn’t make you a good Catholic.

    Maybe if you do that, you should apply for a job at the Vatican (or Menzingen or wherever others like you go).
    The dogma is that the EUCHARIST IS THE SACRAMENT OF UNITY

    The Council of Trent teaches that the Eucharist is:

    • “the symbol of that unity and charity with which Christ wished all Christians to be mutually bound and united.” 
      Trent, Session XIII, Chapter II
    This is a dogmatic statement, because Session XIII is part of Trent’s doctrinal decree on the Eucharist.
    Trent also anathematizes anyone who denies that the Eucharist is a sign of unity:
    • Canon 2 (Session XIII) condemns those who deny that the Eucharist contains “the bond of charity.”

    So, when the Canon 671 says they can share sacraments with heretics/schismatics, it is a DENIAL OF THIS DOGMA. They are saying that the Eucharist is NOT a sign of unity simply because they offer it to them without their needing to be ONE IN FAITH. The heretic/schismatic does not need to FIRST repent of his heresy/schism and be reconciled to the Church BEFORE he receives, it simply says, "who request them on their own, provided they manifest a faith consonant with that of the Catholic Church concerning these sacraments and are rightly disposed." How can they be "rightly disposed" when they are still professing heretics/schismatics?



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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 03:09:33 PM »
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    • Ok. I think your claims are all expressed clearly now. 

    Skid Low and World’s Way claim:
    The Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches was written to include the option of giving the Eucharist to a dying Orthodox christian in need that believes in the True Faith but is schismatic. The canon is an opening for abuse that denies the dogma of unity in the Eucharist and that makes the Byzantine church not a Catholic option, contaminated and non-Catholic as well as heretical. 

    I think that I have regurgitated your position faithfully to what you are claiming. 

    The claim follows the typical pattern of classic SSPX crisis evaluation. It looks weak at first, but does make a solid point, with me at least. 

    Do I believe that it undermines my position. No, but it does raise an eyebrow. 

    If the Byzantine Church were sharing Holy Communion with Orthodox and showing in its teachings that it did not believe the Orthodox to be correct, it would raise more than an eyebrow. It would signal to be religious indifferentism and I would leave my defense of it to the side. (Flipping and flopping. Right? Nah. That’s coherency.)

    My advice to the both of you is that if the appearance in CCEO of 671 is enough for you to crisis police your boundary and dismiss the Byzantine Church as not Catholic, then that is your own decision that you make for your Faith. Given the issues with all the other groups holding Tradition, for me it still seems the better Catholic option. 

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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 03:16:09 PM »
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    • I am just defending the dogma from the same perversion that the Eastern churches allow - like Modernist Rome.

    Maybe they don't often or hardly ever get requests from non-Catholics for Sacraments - I won't know, and I wager you don't either, so don't pretend because you are having a great local experience that the whole Byzantine rite is untouched by this putrid and heretical non-canon from hell.

    Words matter. Canons matter. praying with heretics and sharing sacraments with heretics/schismatics is forbidden - take up your gripes about it with God.

    Well looky here...

    https://parma.org/news/join-the-2025-byzantine-assembly-strengthening-our-liturgical-ecuмenical-mission




    "Ut Unum Sint" that one is a gem...:laugh1:

    Looks pretty much Modernist and all Vatican II to me.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 03:24:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 03:16:09 PM
    I am just defending the dogma from the same perversion that the Eastern churches allow - like Modernist Rome.

    Maybe they don't often or hardly ever get requests from non-Catholics for Sacraments - I won't know, and I wager you don't either, so don't pretend because you are having a great local experience that the whole Byzantine rite is untouched by this putrid and heretical non-canon from hell.

    Words matter. Canons matter. praying with heretics and sharing sacraments with heretics/schismatics is forbidden - take up your gripes about it with God.

    Canon 671 cannot be reconciled with the dogma that the Eucharist presupposes unity of faith and communion. No emergency clause, no appeal to disposition, and no distinction between schism and heresy removes that contradiction. A canon that permits Eucharistic communion prior to reconciliation violates perennial Eucharistic discipline, regardless of intent. That does not make the Byzantine Church heretical; it just means modern authorities codified a bad discipline and promoted bad theology in official texts. 

    It’s still the better option considering the options. And I’ve explored the options all over North and South America. The point of the post was severely missed on this side conversation. 



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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 03:36:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on Yesterday at 03:24:08 PM

    Canon 671 cannot be reconciled with the dogma that the Eucharist presupposes unity of faith and communion. No emergency clause, no appeal to disposition, and no distinction between schism and heresy removes that contradiction. A canon that permits Eucharistic communion prior to reconciliation violates perennial Eucharistic discipline, regardless of intent. That does not make the Byzantine Church heretical; it just means modern authorities codified a bad discipline and promoted bad theology in official texts.

    It does more than violate discipline. Because it is codified - it is a tacit admission of rupture and yes, it is heretical as well. It was received by the Eastern bishops, this is a real heretical practice they have in their code. They may choose not to follow it, but it is still there, held up as a holy law that will lead you to heaven if followed. But to share the Sacraments with heretics/schismatics will lead you to burn in the everlasting fires of hell. 

    Now the conversation could flip to the indefectibility of the Church, but since we know that the ENTIRE EAST could slide away into heresy and schism (technically possible) it would be a moot point in this thread to get into that.

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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 04:00:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 03:16:09 PM
    I am just defending the dogma from the same perversion that the Eastern churches allow - like Modernist Rome.

    Maybe they don't often or hardly ever get requests from non-Catholics for Sacraments - I won't know, and I wager you don't either, so don't pretend because you are having a great local experience that the whole Byzantine rite is untouched by this putrid and heretical non-canon from hell.

    Words matter. Canons matter. praying with heretics and sharing sacraments with heretics/schismatics is forbidden - take up your gripes about it with God.

    Well looky here...

    https://parma.org/news/join-the-2025-byzantine-assembly-strengthening-our-liturgical-ecuмenical-mission




    "Ut Unum Sint" that one is a gem...:laugh1:

    Looks pretty much Modernist and all Vatican II to me.

    This is Vatican II ecclesiology dressed up as Byzantine tradition. 



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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: End to the State of Necessity
    « Reply #134 on: Yesterday at 04:01:11 PM »
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    • Who is His Grace, The Most Rev. Robert M. Pipta, (2023- present)?

    https://parma.org/about-bishop



    Then go HERE

    Click on the "Teaching" labeled "The Double-Headed Eagle"





    He is well formed in Modernism, an astute acolyte of the new religion of man.

    And keep in mind, this is the supposed head of a Byzantine Eparchy to boot.

    His reach extends to Byzantine Catholics in 12 states.

    Lastly, take note that this docuмent is listed under the Eparchy's website under "BISHOPS TEACHING". Here we have a Byzantine Catholic bishop teaching religious freedom as taught by Vatican II.

    None of this looks like positive supporting evidence for the OP's claim that there should be an, "End to the state of necessity", if that was actually the intended aim of the OP...



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