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Author Topic: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis  (Read 5461 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
« Reply #135 on: November 08, 2022, 06:00:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on November 07, 2022, 10:24:55 PM

     And by their own admission there has been a vast "silent apostasy" in the West which is arguably the Great Apostasy which has been prophesied in Sacred Scripture.


    Yes, there is no need to concoct some elaborate theory about "material" hierarchs who lack the "form" of complete and true hierarchs to justify rejection of hierarchs whose authority should not be rejected per the traditional teaching. It's a fork for those who want to have their cake and eat it too: they want to keep the traditional teaching (submit) while rejecting what the teaching would require - submission.

    As always, God's truth is more profound than such subtleties of human ingenuity -

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    1 Tim. 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called.


    It is simply the Great Apostasy foretold. In the corporate church of Israel the High Priest condemned Christ to death and effectively killed him, and the pattern repeats itself, even to the point of the apparent victory of the darkness being only apparent - as we may all live to see.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #136 on: November 08, 2022, 08:18:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 08, 2022, 05:42:21 AM
    Thanks for clarifying, Servus. Essentially, we are in agreement. The obligation of Galatians 1:8-9 is always with us; it is a divine command.

    If one is "continually" evaluating whether the Church is the Church based on what is being taught, that is definitely not the     "assent and submission of faith" (Lad) and a "yield(ing) of their own opinion" (Hardicanute) that Lad and Hardicanute spoke of.
    I find that wording very problematic but I realize that follows from what I said.

    I abstain from having an opinion and am agnostic on this issue for now because I can't formulate it without it sounding wrong.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #137 on: November 08, 2022, 09:40:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2022, 09:30:16 PM
    Both R&R and Totalism fall under this condemnation, with the former holding that the Visible Head of the Church and its bishops have erred (so grievously that Catholics must refuse communion with them), and the latter that they have "perished throughout the world".
    .

    The Thesis has the same problem, unless you think it would have been okay with Pius IX if the Old Catholics had said, "Oh, no, Your Holiness, we just don't think you are formally the pope. We accept you as the pope materialiter, i.e. you have no jurisdiction, but you do hold a material title to the papacy so that if you were to repent of and retract your errors, you would then assume the papal jurisdiction."

    If you think Pius IX would say, "Oh, okay, yeah, that's fine, no problem," then yes, the Totalists have a problem that the Thesis doesn't have. But I suspect Pius IX would have objected just as strongly (and probably with the same arguments) to the Old Catholics if they had rejected him using the Thesis.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #138 on: November 08, 2022, 09:46:32 AM »
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    • This is what bugs me about the Thesis. People are suckered into it because they are taken in by the claims that its proponents make about it, without evaluating whether those claims are even true. The Guerardians claim that it is against the Faith to say that all members of the hierarchy have lost the Faith, and claim that their system doesn't have that problem. Most people just seem to accept both these statements uncritically. But then on the very next page the Guerardians will say that the Novus Ordo hierarchy has no jurisdiction and do not teach the Faith. Wait, isn't the hierarchy the body of men that have jurisdiction in the Church and teach the Faith with authority? So what happened to the promise they had just made that their system explains how there is a hierarchy?
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    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #139 on: November 08, 2022, 12:03:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on November 08, 2022, 09:40:32 AM
    .

    The Thesis has the same problem, unless you think it would have been okay with Pius IX if the Old Catholics had said, "Oh, no, Your Holiness, we just don't think you are formally the pope. We accept you as the pope materialiter, i.e. you have no jurisdiction, but you do hold a material title to the papacy so that if you were to repent of and retract your errors, you would then assume the papal jurisdiction."

    If you think Pius IX would say, "Oh, okay, yeah, that's fine, no problem," then yes, the Totalists have a problem that the Thesis doesn't have. But I suspect Pius IX would have objected just as strongly (and probably with the same arguments) to the Old Catholics if they had rejected him using the Thesis.
    LOL. Thanks for pointing that out Yeti. I don't know how I didn't notice that.

    This line of discussion made me forget my initial points.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #140 on: November 12, 2022, 05:47:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hardicanute on November 04, 2022, 06:05:35 PM

    I understand your viewpoint. The concern would then be whether we can have epistemological certainty about our era being the end times. Many past generations thought as such and were wrong. That being the case, it’s difficult to justify an abandonment of certain ecclesiological principles on a point of doubtful certainty.


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    Mt 24:14-16 - And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. [16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:

    2 Th 2:1    -5 - And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Apoc 18:4-5 -     And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. [5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities.

    We go on and on arguing about theses and whether the pope is a heretic (or a pope could be) or whether the pope is the pope, whether apostolic succession has ceased, etc. Almost the pre-Apocalyptic version of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. 

    Yet we have seen: Assisi. Pachamama. Totally unprecedented. 

    How many more signs do we need to see?

    We are in the Great Apostasy, the great revolt, the great schism (Latin, discessio, in St. Jerome's Vulgate as the word for the "revolt" of 2 Th 2:3).

    Remember. 

    I'm so stupid and forgetful I'm going to print this post and stick it on my fridge. 




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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #141 on: November 12, 2022, 07:03:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 12, 2022, 05:47:43 AM

    We go on and on arguing about theses and whether the pope is a heretic (or a pope could be) or whether the pope is the pope, whether apostolic succession has ceased, etc. Almost the pre-Apocalyptic version of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    Yet we have seen: Assisi. Pachamama. Totally unprecedented.

    How many more signs do we need to see?

    We are in the Great Apostasy, the great revolt, the great schism (Latin, discessio, in St. Jerome's Vulgate as the word for the "revolt" of 2 Th 2:3).

    Remember.

    I'm so stupid and forgetful I'm going to print this post and stick it on my fridge.
    Yes, DR. I agree that 2Thessalonians2 is happening right before our very eyes. 

    Between the state of the world, our government, and last but not least the Church, it's all so tiring.  How much longer Lord?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #142 on: November 12, 2022, 07:28:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 12, 2022, 07:03:55 AM
     it's all so tiring.  How much longer Lord?
    I ask myself this almost daily.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #143 on: November 12, 2022, 07:46:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 12, 2022, 07:03:55 AM
    Yes, DR. I agree that 2Thessalonians2 is happening right before our very eyes. 

    Between the state of the world, our government, and last but not least the Church, it's all so tiring.  How much longer Lord?

    Zech 1:12 - And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem, and on the cities of Juda, with which thou hast been angry? this is now the seventieth year.

     Apoc 6:10 - And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    PS 9:13 - For requiring their blood he hath remembered them: he hath not forgotten the cry of the poor.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #144 on: November 23, 2022, 09:13:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 04, 2022, 08:06:28 AM
    Yes, it seems to me that the "Thesis" looks to/waits for a non-Catholic sect to give us a Catholic pope.  I think the Thesis may have been more tenable years ago, but at this point, we might as well wait for the Lutheran or the Anglican church to give us a Catholic pope.
    Well stated.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #145 on: November 23, 2022, 09:57:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on November 08, 2022, 09:40:32 AM

    The Thesis has the same problem, unless you think it would have been okay with Pius IX if the Old Catholics had said, "Oh, no, Your Holiness, we just don't think you are formally the pope. We accept you as the pope materialiter, i.e. you have no jurisdiction, but you do hold a material title to the papacy so that if you were to repent of and retract your errors, you would then assume the papal jurisdiction."

    No, that's not what I'm referring to.  I've already stated the the way to avoid either Magisterium-sifting or Pope-sifting is to view it from the perspective of the motives of credibility, where we don't recognize the Conciliar Church as having the marks of the Church.

    What's being discussed here is whether it's possible for all ordinary jurisdiction in the Church to be evacuated even for a short time.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #146 on: November 23, 2022, 10:03:31 AM »
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    • Calling the Conciliar Church a non-Catholic sect simpliciter is the problem here, along with the inability to make distinctions.

    People who can't understand the notion of a distinction or what it means fall into this rut of the false dilemma.

    Conciliar Church as Conciliar Church is a non-Catholic entity, but the problem is that there are still Catholics there, many of them holding jurisdiction in continuity with the pre-Vatican II Church.  While nearly all are in at least material error, there are still a number of Catholic bishops who are not pertinacious heretics, and their errors do not rise to the level of heresy, which alone would exclude them from membership in the Church.  Most of these types are the Eastern Rite bishops, and they also still have valid Holy Orders there.

    Of course, it's somewhat debated whether all the Church's bishops receive jurisdiction immediately from Christ vs. whether it's only through the Pope and the papacy, and how one falls in this issue would determine whether Totalism is viable.

    If you believe that jursidiction comes only from the Pope, then this jurisdiction cease during every interregnum, so in that case there's no new problem here with Totalism.
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