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Author Topic: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis  (Read 5464 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2022, 09:05:46 AM »
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  • (A) is inaccurate. The Conciliar “Church” is materially the Roman Catholic Church.
    Absurd. The Church is the members. You are saying that people can be material but not formal Catholics. Sounds like "substit / partial communion" Vatican II ecclesiology to me. 

    Quote
    " If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers."



    You make the Church look like some monster and not like the Mystical Body of Christ.

    I suggest you read this: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

    I have to study. God bless you.


    Offline Hardicanute

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #31 on: November 04, 2022, 09:11:23 AM »
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  • Absurd. The Church is the members. You are saying that people can be material but not formal Catholics. Sounds like "substit / partial communion" Vatican II ecclesiology to me.



    You make the Church look like some monster and not like the Mystical Body of Christ.

    I suggest you read this: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

    I have to study. God bless you.


    There is a distinction between membership and authority which you are conflating and which is not applicable to the material/formal distinction. 

    Best of luck on your studies. God Bless you as well.
    euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    -Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum


    Offline Hardicanute

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #32 on: November 04, 2022, 09:42:07 AM »
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  • Is there proof of this somewhere?  It certainly would be important info to have, no?

    Please review this thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/des-lauriers-retracted-the-cassiciacuм-thesis/
    euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    -Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #33 on: November 04, 2022, 10:31:27 AM »
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  • 1. Retention of apostolic succession, indefectibility, and visibility.
    2. A realistic view of how a future valid Pope, and Bishop of the Roman See, may be had and relatively universally accepted.
    3. An avoidance of Conclavism, mystical apocalypticism, and panoptic sectarianism.
    .
    Thank you for putting it so succinctly! 
    .
    I am a sedevacantist, but I do not hold Guerard des Lauriers's position. My reasons are that I find it somewhat over thought and slightly novel as a result, but even if not for that I have never found it to hold any implications that cannot be arrived at through more conventional and surer theological principles. 
    .
    As to 1, I think these features of the Church can and are retained with 'simple' sedevacantism, so long as one avoids arguing that ordinary jurisdiction has terminated. As to 3, I am very keen to see those errors avoided-- although thesis holders in general do seem to be some of the most idiosyncratic traditionalists--no offense, I'm only saying that I've not seen any proof in reality that the thesis makes for stable piety. 
    .
    To me, it would seem that the second implication is the truest implication, and the one implication the thesis has that simple sedevacantism does not. The thesis provides a relatively specific 'way out' whilst simple sedevacantism, though free to provide a variety of possible ways forward, does not render clear which of those ways are veritable. 
    .
    Thanks, and God bless. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #34 on: November 04, 2022, 10:36:40 AM »
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  • I heard a story that Bp. des Lauriers left behind a docuмent saying he retracted his belief in the thesis towards the end of his life. Can we add that to the encyclopedia? :laugh1:

    This has been discussed ... totally apocryphal story invented by some radical dogmatic SVs who hated his thesis.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #35 on: November 04, 2022, 10:38:32 AM »
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  • This has been discussed ... totally apocryphal story invented by some radical dogmatic SVs who hated his thesis.
    .

    Oh, interesting. Do you happen to remember what thread that was so I can read up on this?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #36 on: November 04, 2022, 10:40:52 AM »
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  • Oh, interesting. Do you happen to remember what thread that was so I can read up on this?

    No, it's been a while, and I'm finding that I can find fewer things from a long time ago using the Search feature.  I actually have better luck using Google and adding cathinfo.com to the search terms.

    Offline Hardicanute

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #37 on: November 04, 2022, 10:52:07 AM »
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  • .

    Oh, interesting. Do you happen to remember what thread that was so I can read up on this?

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/des-lauriers-retracted-the-cassiciacuм-thesis/

    @Ladislaus as well. ^^^
    euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    -Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Offline Hardicanute

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #39 on: November 04, 2022, 10:58:33 AM »
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  • That link is broken for me.

    It’s because of Matthew’s programming of certain words on this forum.

    See this instead or re-write manually the original link: https://tinyurl.com/47pt3jp4
    euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    -Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #40 on: November 04, 2022, 11:00:57 AM »
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  • Here's an example of formal-material, where "Totalism" to which many cling fails.

    There's no doubt that Boston's Cardinal Cushing was a heretic.  He was a manifest heretic who openly denied EENS dogma and was a religious indifferentist and promoter of false Ecuмenism.

    He repeatedly and publicly denied EENS, not just subtly, but openly:  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense."  But even if you pretend that verbatim denial of a defined dogma is manifest heresy, let's just assume for the sake of the following discussion that he was in fact a manifest heretic.

    For the Totalists, did Cushing lose office and jusrisdiction?  Did the priests in his diocese lose jurisdiction, say, for confessions ... because Cushing was a manifest heretic?


    Offline Hardicanute

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #41 on: November 04, 2022, 11:57:29 AM »
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  • Father Lehtoranta: Totalism vs the Cassiciacuм Thesis - (Totalist perspective)

    euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti docentes eos servare omnia quaecuмque mandavi vobis et ecce ego vobiscuм sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    -Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #42 on: November 04, 2022, 12:07:09 PM »
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  • It’s because of Matthew’s programming of certain words on this forum.

    See this instead or re-write manually the original link: https://tinyurl.com/47pt3jp4

    Right, the one word in particular that in a forum where we debate the una cuм issue all the time ... that restriction should likely be lifted, as I've never seen that word used in its vulgar sense here.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #43 on: November 04, 2022, 12:25:40 PM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/des-lauriers-retracted-the-cassiciacuм-thesis/

    @Ladislaus as well. ^^^
    .

    Thank you, Canute! I am going to look into this. But yes, we need to know what Denoyelle wrote that Bp. des Lauriers endorsed, otherwise this doesn't really help. Unfortunately it looks like this stuff is all in French. The letter of des Lauriers is pretty short and gives little information in itself, it just says that his thesis contains errors and that he accepts the conclusions of Denoyelles.

    The video of Fr. Lehtoranta looks interesting and I will try to watch that when I can.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Encyclopedia of the Cassiciacuм Thesis
    « Reply #44 on: November 04, 2022, 12:31:07 PM »
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  • Right, the one word in particular that in a forum where we debate the una cuм issue all the time ... that restriction should likely be lifted, as I've never seen that word used in its vulgar sense here.
    I recall that he did it because Google kept flagging the site for its usage
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]