Author Topic: The Conciliar Church as the Harlot/Whore of Babylon (Read 2598 times)

DecemRationis · « **on:** September 06, 2026, 07:10:24 AM »

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Apocalypse 5:9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Apocalypse 7:9 After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands:

Apocalypse 10:11 And he said to me: Thou must prophesy again to many nations, and peoples, and tongues, and kings.

Apocalypse 11:9 And they of the tribes, and peoples, and tongues, and nations, shall see their bodies for three days and a half: and they shall not suffer their bodies to be laid in sepulchres.

Apocalypse 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation.

Apocalypse 14:6 And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people:

Apocalypse 17:15 And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and nations, and tongues.

We are given a tagline, or descriptive phrase, in the book of the Apocalypse that, with other keys given by God (especially in the closing verses of Apocalypse 18), give us a guide to interpretation, so that we may read and understand who is the great harlot/whore described in chapters 18 and 19 of the book of the Apocalypse, or Revelation, of St. John.

The tagline is a phrase that includes at least three of the following words: nation(s), tribe(s), people(s), and tongue(s). It refers to an entity that is comprised of the people of the world, people from every land, of different races and languages. It describes the Church, the Catholic Church, the Church of the New Covenant for the salvation not of just Jews but all the people of the world, without flesh or ethnic distinction.

I think it appropriate to call this entity, in light of the testimony of the Scriptures, the “Gentile Church” because of its universal scope and its significance in bringing salvation to the Gentiles, who numerically and overwhelmingly predominant in its population, and from whom its leaders and prelates are taken. This marks it, the new Israel of God, in distinction from old Israel, with its ethnic distinctive of being centered in the Hebrew nation.

In verses 5:9, 7:9, 10:11 and 14:6, you see this tagline used to identify the people of God in various senses: in the sense of the people of the world, without distinction, to whom the Gospel is preached, Apoc. 10:11 and 14:6, and in the sense of the extent and range of the people who believe it and are saved by it, Apocalypse 5:9, depicted as they are in verse 7:9 as worshiping the Lord in heaven. These are the positive references, in black ink.

But then you see the tagline being used negatively in verses 11:9, 13:7 and 17:15, which I highlight in red. This entity becomes subject to the power of the beast, Apoc. 13:7, and the great harlot/whore of the Apocalypse is portrayed as “sitting on it,” Apoc. 17:17, and the people of all tribes, nations, etc. who comprise it are shown as looking upon the dead bodies of the two witnesses of God in Apoc. 11:9, and not allowing them to be buried, for “three and a half days.” In the following verse, Apoc. 11:10, we read that they exult over, and celebrate, the death of the two faithful witnesses: “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry: and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth.”

The same entity from whom the saved remnant of humanity is drawn, whose members populate heaven in eternal worship of God, is the entity which becomes the seat of the harlot/whore, and of that same entity are the people who exult over the death of the faithful witness(es), and refuse them burial.

It is the body which occupies the kingdom of God on earth, comprised of wheat and tares, Matthew 13, a body which becomes the place of, in the end of the age and consummation of the world, a revolt or great apostasy before Our Lord’s return, 2 Thessalonians 2, a body in whom and in which the saving sacrifice of Christ “ceases” because of its apostasy when the “abomination of desolation” appears in it (“the Temple”) after the saving sacrifice and gospel has been spread and preached throughout the world, Dan. 9:27, Heb. 10:26, Matt. 24:14-15.

God willing, I will further elaborate here in subsequent posts on the identification of this apostate harlot/whore (whose “seat” is the Church) ushering in this last harrowing and sifting phase in mankind’s journey, but this tagline gives us enough of a hint.

In the worldwide apostasy of the post-Vatican II “Conciliar Church” the formerly pagan “gentiles” of every “tribe, nation, tongue, and people” have indeed returned to their “vomit,” and their “house” will end up more contaminated than it was before the gospel was preached to them by virtue of their betrayal and apostasy. 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 6:4-6, Matthew 12:43-45.

Of course, I do not speak of the “elect” Israel of the promise (faithful, Traditional Catholics who reject Conciliar heresies), but the Israel of the “flesh,” the tares that have now overrun the wheat and exult over the death of the faithful. Cf. Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 4:27-29.

The history of the Israel of the old covenant is repeated in the Israel of the new covenant. Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:5-11.

There is nothing new under the sun.

And we, as Israel of old, were warned. Romans 11:20-21.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #1 on:** September 21, 2026, 06:36:44 AM »

Jerusalem a type of the Church

In this section, I want to note some parallels between the language of the closing verses of Chapter 18 of the Apocalypse, referring to the Harlot/Whore of Babylon, and language in the OT that is applied to Jerusalem/Israel.

But first it is necessary to note that the Church has always identified itself as the Israel/Jerusalem of the New Covenant, and throughout the OT in many places there will be a Haydock or Challoner note revealing that identification and applying the verse in question (talking about Israel or Jerusalem) to the Church.

For example, and for the sake of brevity, I’ll refer to some of the more prominent: the Haydock/Challoner notes to Zacharias (Zechariah) 2:4 (Challoner: “Jerusalem shall be inhabited. This must be understood of the spiritual Jerusalem, the church of Christ”); Jeremias (Jeremiah) 33:9 (“Jerusalem, as figure of the Church”); Jeremias 33:16 (“The Hebrew has ‘her’ Jerusalem, or the Church, which receives all its beauty from Christ”); Psalm 86, throughout, e.g., 86:2 (“Jacob. Jerusalem belonged to some of his children. Hence the psalmist clearly speaks of something better, even of the Church of Christ, (Berthier) which God has chosen for his spouse, having abandoned the ѕуηαgσgυє, (Apocalypse 21:9.; Calmet) which was only intended to be a pedagogue’); Isaiah 60:1 (“O Jerusalem, is not in Hebrew or St. Jerome, but in the Septuagint. Some few things may refer to the terrestrial Jerusalem, though the prophet speaks chiefly of the celestial and of the Church”), 60:6 (which reads, “the multitude of the seas shall be converted to thee,” and Hayock: “Thee. No such nations joined the Jews, as they did the Church”), 60:11 (which reads, “the strength of the Gentiles may be brought to thee,” and Haydock: “The Gentiles help to form the Church, which rejects no one, ver. 11”), and 60:14 (“Jerusalem shall be rebuilt by those who destroyed it, Isaias 49:17. It is not easy to prove this of the earthly city: but the pagans, who persecuted the Church, have embraced her communion, and begged to receive baptism”); and, Psalm 121:3 (which reads, "Jerusalem, which is built as a city, which is compact together,” and Haydock: “The participation of spiritual graces (Psalm 118:63., etc.) is a great comfort to Catholics, (Worthington) who look upon the chair of St. Peter at Rome as the centre of unity”).

Jerusalem a type of the Church and Babylon, with Babylon as the Church of the End Times becoming Apostate

In the New Testament, there are references to a “new Jerusalem,” which speaks of the elect of the Church in the Church triumphant. For example, see Haydock on Apoc. 21:2: “Justice, innocence, the good works of the saints, are the ornaments of the inhabitants of this new Jerusalem, the Church triumphant . . .”).

As I will show, language applied to the Whore of Babylon in the closing verses of Apoc. 18 are used of Babylon to identify it with Jerusalem. This Whore is either Jerusalem or Israel qua the Jerusalem of the OT, or the Church, of which Jerusalem is the type. The Catholic Church, with Christ, is the fulfillment of many of types that appear in the OT. Of course, Jerusalem and Israel are repeatedly called out for its apostasy and idolatry by the OT prophets, and Christ talks about a judgment on the OT city that brings desolation. Matt. 23:38.

St. Peter specifically identifies the Church as “in Babylon,” in 1 Peter 5:13, which Challoner notes, “Figuratively, Rome.” The Church is overwhelmingly composed of formerly pagan Gentiles, and Psalm 86 identifies those of Babylon and Tyre (another type of the Church, see the closing verses of Isaiah 23) as being “there,” and “born in her,” i.e. Sion, which Challoner notes as “viz., the Church.” And see the previous post in this thread and recall that the Harlot sits on “peoples, and nations, and tongues,” which is a tagline for the Church. Apoc. 17:15.

If Jerusalem is a type of the Church, and, as the verses below will show, of Babylon, the identification of the Church with Babylon is consistent (as the type is associated with both) with the typology used by God in the Scriptures, and the association between the Church as the “seat” of the Harlot/Whore Babylon is established by God’s use of the tagline, “people(s), nation(s), tongue(s),” etc., which solidifies the identification. See Apoc. 17:15 ("And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and nations, and tongues.").

The Verses in Apocalypse 18

One of the more prominent indications that the Harlot/Whore of Babylon is an Apostate Church are the signs in the specifically crafted metaphors of Apoc. 18:23 - 24:

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And the voice of harpers, and of musicians, and of them that play on the pipe, and on the trumpet, shall no more be heard at all in thee; and no craftsman of any art whatsoever shall be found any more at all in thee; and the sound of the mill shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments.

The Church was meant to be the light and "candlestick" of the world:

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Matthew 5:14-16

You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid.Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house. So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

The seven churches of Revelation are described as "seven candlesticks." Apoc. 1:20 Christ warns the church of Ephesus of the removal of its "candlestick" Apoc. 2:25:

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Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

Search the Scriptures: is any heathen nation or kingdom described as being a "candlestick" of light?

There is also the trope of the “bridegroom” and “bride” in Rev. 18:23:

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And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments.

Who is the bridegroom? Who is the bride? Christ is the bridegroom (John 3:29), and Jerusalem/Israel/ the Church is described as the bride. E.g., Eph. 5; Rev. 21:9.

Jeremiah speaks repeatedly about the "voice of the bride and the voice of the bridegroom" being taken from Jerusalem/Israel. For example, in Jer. 7:34: "And I will cause to cease out of the cities of Juda, and out of the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." See also Jer. 16:9, 25:10, 33:11. This is highly crafted and directed language. God never speaks of the "voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride” in reference to any other people but Israel/Jerusalem.

As Israel and Jerusalem were made desolate, so shall the fleshly edifice of the Christian Church be made desolate and destroyed in the judgment of the Lord's return as the "voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride" departs from it forever.

Of course, there is the remnant elect Israel of God, who are also part of Israel. Romans 9:6-8. But the Harlot/Whore is an Apostate Corporate Body, a body which always contained tares among the wheat, but a body in which the tares overrun before the Lord’s return.

The Persecutor of the Saints

One of the most forceful and powerful of the indicators identifying the Whore with a false and apostate Jerusalem/Israel/Church is the identifier of a persecutor and killer of the prophets, saints and righteous:

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Matthew 23:34-37

Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your ѕуηαgσgυєs, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Again, this is specific and highly wrought language, the verses echoing each other, with I believe the specific purpose of us identifying the Whore of Babylon with Jerusalem/Israel, or the corporate representation of God’s people, which is the Catholic Church under the New Covenant.

Judgment begins at the house of God:

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1 Peter 4:17 For the time is that judgement begin of the house of God. And if first of us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the Gospel of God?

Heb. 10:26-31 For if we sin willingly after the knowledge of the truth received, now there is not left an host for sins, but a certain terrible expectation of judgement & rage of fire, which shall consume the adversaries.A man making the Law of Moyses frustrate, without any mercy dieth under two or three witnesses. How much more think you, doth he deserve worse punishments which hath trodden the Son of God under-foot, and esteemed the blood of the testament polluted, wherein he is sanctified, and hath done contumely to the spirit of grace? For we know him that said, Revenge to me, I will repay. And again, That our Lord will judge his people. It is horrible to fall into the hands of the living God.

As a side note, the Hebrews passage refers to “not left a host for sins” if, basically, we apostasize (“if we sin willfully after the knowledge of the truth received”). That is, I believe, a reference to the sacrifice ceasing as prophesied by Daniel. Daniel 9:27. It is the offering of Cain (“the fruit of the earth”) of the Apostate Conciliar Church, aka Whore of Babylon.

For a thread on the sacrifice ceasing, see:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/the-ceasing-of-the-holy-sacrifice-during-antichrist's-reign/

Finally, Apoc. 18:23 states: "And the voice of harpers, and of musicians, and of them that play on the pipe, and on the trumpet, shall no more be heard at all in thee." Playing on harps, singing, making music, this signifies worship glorifying God, and is associated with the elect:

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Apoc. 14:2-3 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder: and the voice which I heard, as of harpers harping on their harps. And they sang as it were a new song before the seat and before the four beasts, and the Seniors, & no man could say the song, but those hundred forty four thousand, that were bought from the earth.

Apoc. 15:2-3 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire, & them that overcame the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing upon the sea of glass, having the harps of God:
and singing the song of Moyses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: Great and marvelous are thy works Lord God omnipotent: just and true are thy ways King of the worlds.

The great Psalm of the heavenly Jerusalem, Psalm 86 (Ps. 87 KJV), closes in the Douay Rheims thus: T"he habitation in thee, is as it were of all rejoicing." The KJV translates thus, making my point clear:

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As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

Of course, the elect, the "harpers," are commanded by God to flee the Whore in Apoc. 18:4 - "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her my people: that you be not partakers of her sins, and receive not of her plagues."

Thus, when Apoc. 18:23 talks of the "harpers" not being heard in the Whore, it refers to the true believers, the election, having fled . . . taking refuge in the true Catholic faith and worshipping God, like Abel, with the true sacrifice of Christ in the TLM.

And, with a resonance and irony that makes Shakespear look like an amateur cartoonist, God also speaks of music makers as those who promote and peddle idolatry and, in the case of such as were “once enlightened” and who “escaped the pollution of the world,” those who turned apostate:

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Daniel 3:15 Now therefore if you be ready at what hour soever you shall hear the sound of the trumpet, flute, harp, sackbut, and psaltery, and symphony, and of all kind of music, prostrate yourselves, and adore the statue which I have made: but if you do not adore, you shall be cast the same hour into the furnace of burning fire: and who is the God that shall deliver you out of my hand?

Speaking of resonance and irony, the greatest poetry operates on two, three or more levels, and has a meaning so wide-ranging that it can cover almost everything. Thus, the “furnace” that old “Nabuchodonosor” tried to put Daniel’s faithful buddies in for not worshipping the “golden statue” is also the place where the idolaters themselves will end up:

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Apocalypse 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

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Author Topic: The Conciliar Church as the Harlot/Whore of Babylon (Read 2598 times)

DecemRationis

The Conciliar Church as the Harlot/Whore of Babylon

DecemRationis

Re: Jerusalem, the Church, and the Whore