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Author Topic: Election of a heretical pope  (Read 3591 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2021, 10:43:29 AM »
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    So that's my view of things, that Bergoglio is a material pope and that he serves as a material conduit for jurisdiction, even though he has no jurisdiction himself ... and he certainly lacks any teaching authority due to his heresy.

    I wish everyone could agree on this and we could move on.  But some just can't allow (in their mind) the "material pope only" option, which certainly has merit.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #31 on: July 20, 2021, 10:48:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 20, 2021, 10:43:29 AM
    I wish everyone could agree on this and we could move on.  But some just can't allow (in their mind) the "material pope only" option, which certainly has merit.

    Exactly.  If we could all just agree that, whatever the legal status of Bergoglio is, we've all "receded" from him and consider him "impounded" ... leaving the details to be solved later by the Church.  When Father Chazal articulated his sede-impoundist position, I had hoped that everybody could rally around that.  But everyone seems to believe they can solve the Bellarmine vs. Cajetain/John of St Thomas vs. quite-a-few-others controvery.

    In practice we all ignore the man anyway.  Nobody went through his "Recyclical" to find which statements cannot be accepted.  We just ignored it.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #32 on: July 20, 2021, 11:02:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2021, 10:20:35 AM
    Another interesting consideration is this.

    Take the case of a heretic priest, say, in the 1950s.  He's running around obstinately preaching heresy.  There were many of these already in the 1950s.  Does that priest still have jurisdiction to hear Confession?  Or has he been so thoroughly severed from the Church that he can no longer do so, since he's no member of the Church?

    I would say that this priest still has jurisdiction because he's a conduit for the bishop's jurisdiction ... until the bishop were to relieve him of duty.
    Very good point you bring up, to which I will add - what about *all* the other priests, bishops, cardinals and pope, all who are guilty of participating in his heresy by their silence / consent since none of them did anything to try to reprimand or stop the priest from obstinately preaching heresy?
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #33 on: July 20, 2021, 11:07:48 AM »
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    • What is sede-impoundism and how does it differ from sedeprivationism?
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    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #34 on: July 20, 2021, 11:38:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on July 20, 2021, 11:07:48 AM
    What is sede-impoundism and how does it differ from sedeprivationism?
    I asked that same question within the week and have yet to receive an answer.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #35 on: July 20, 2021, 12:00:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on July 20, 2021, 11:07:48 AM
    What is sede-impoundism and how does it differ from sedeprivationism?

    I believe that it's just a slightly different spin on a very similar concept, but Father Chazal disagrees.

    I actually wonder if Father Chazal understands the notions of sedeprivationism.  I just watched a video where he defined it incorrectly.  He defined sedeprivationism as the notion that the pope was a heretic before he was elected and therefore was never a valid pope, so basically just a variant of straight sedevacantism.  So I wonder if that could explain his violent reaction when others (myself included) suggested that he had adopted sedeprivationism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #36 on: July 20, 2021, 12:03:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: MMagdala on July 20, 2021, 11:38:51 AM
    I asked that same question within the week and have yet to receive an answer.

    Shortly after Father Chazal gave his first long video about these issues, I started a thread here where I asserted that Father Chazal had just articulated essentially the same thing as sedeprivationism.  He reacted strongly against this point of view.  I'll be honest, I still don't understand how it differs from sedeprivationism, but I haven't had the opportunity/time to read his book.

    Here's my thread:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/father-chazal-sedeprivationist/
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #37 on: July 20, 2021, 12:11:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM
    Quote from: Marion on July 20, 2021, 08:43:53 AM
    Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 05:55:06 AM
    So which divine law prevents a heretic from becoming pope?
    Divine law is either ius divinum positivum or ius divinum naturale, depending on whether it is revealed or known by reason itself based on the nature of things.
    I mean *which* divine law? What is needed is, say for example, against the 1st or 2nd or ? commandment, or reference the pertinent divine revelation from Scripture, this is what is necessary.  To say anything is against Divine Law necessarily must at least be able to reference the specific Divine Law itself.

    As I explained above: The divine law, which prevents a heretic from becoming pope, is not ius divinum positivum, so it is not revealed. Rather, it is ius divinum naturale, which means that it is known by reason itself based on the nature of things.

    To reference the specific divine law itself, I have quoted and commented on Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XII, and St. Robert Bellarmine. Here again the specific divine law (known by reason itself):

    By their nature, heresy, schism, and apostasy sever a man from the body of the Church.
    A man severed from the body of the Church is outside.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
    The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, because he cannot be head of what he is not a member.

    St. Robert furthermore refers to St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others, who explain why a manifest heretic is not a Christian, not a member of the body of Church.


    The specific divine law, preventing a heretic from becoming or from remaining Pope, is given by reason itself based on the nature of things as detailed by Popes, Fathers, and summarized by St. Robert Bellarmine.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #38 on: July 20, 2021, 12:18:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM
    You did not post the immediately preceding (bolded) parts to put the final sentence in context, where Pope Pius XII said that place is allowed in the Body of the Church for those whom Christ Himself did not exclude from the banquet (Mat. 9:11/footnote) and basically, that the Body of the Church includes sinners. Heresy is a sin, a heretic is a sinner.  

    Yes, I didn't quote these parts. And yes, heresy is a sin, and a heretic is a sinner.

    But the point of Pius XII is not that schism, heresy, and apostacy, are sins, his point is that they're different from all other sins. They differ, in that they - by their own nature - sever a man from the body of the Church. Generally, sin does not sever a man from the body of the Church. But these specific sins, schism, heresy, and apostacy do sever the sinner from the body of the Church.

    The body of the Church includes saints and sinners, but no schismatics, heretics, or apostates.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #39 on: July 20, 2021, 12:22:10 PM »
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    • So Sean Johnson started this thread:  "Fr. Chazal Destroys Sedeprivationism".

    In the video in Sean's OP, from 1:15 - 3:00, Father Chazal MISDEFINES sedeprivatonism.  In fact, he even misspells the word on his white board:  sedeprivatonnism.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-chazal-destroys-sedeprivationism/

    So Sean Johnson didn't understand sedeprivationism either, since he promoted this video as "destroying" it.   :laugh1:  Maybe he understands it now?

    Now, I don't know if more recently Father Chazal corrected this.  I'll have to read his book to try understanding how what he holds is different from ACTUAL sedeprivationism.  See my thread above where I explained what in Father Chazal's thinking lines up perfectly with sedeprivationism.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #40 on: July 20, 2021, 12:24:43 PM »
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    • They are far worse than heretical.  More like demonic. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #41 on: July 20, 2021, 12:24:47 PM »
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    • Quote
    By their nature, heresy, schism, and apostasy sever a man from the body of the Church.

    But there are different types of heresy, so your rule doesn't always apply. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #42 on: July 20, 2021, 12:29:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on July 20, 2021, 12:24:43 PM
    They are far worse than heretical.  More like demonic.

    See, I agree with this.  I don't believe these are run-of-the-mill heretics.  I believe that they are conscious infiltrators and deliberate destroyers.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #43 on: July 20, 2021, 12:29:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM
    The problem here is, he *is* pope.

    If he's a manifest heretic, then he isn't head of what he isn't even member. So there is no problem.


    Quote from: Stubborn on July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM
    Our knowledge of his sins of heresy in no way give us the authority to declare otherwise. Thankfully, God did not grant us either supreme nor various degrees of authority based on what we know. Can you imagine it otherwise?  

    Our knowledge of reality forces us to act accordingly. If there is a fire, threatening to burn down a chapel, we have to shout: "Fire, fire!" If there's a wolf, we have to go: "baa-baa". No special authority needed for that.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #44 on: July 20, 2021, 12:38:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2021, 12:22:10 PM
    In fact, he even misspells the word on his white board:  sedeprivatonnism.


    Nitpicker. Chazal is French: Sédéprivationnisme. To make this English, he goes Sedeprivationnism.
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