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Author Topic: Election of a heretical pope  (Read 2681 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2021, 08:19:57 AM »
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    You keep saying Fr Cekada said this or that.  He is quoting other canonists and theologians.  If anything one would need to seek out the sources. 
    That's not what "begging the question" means.  I'm saying he's quoting sources without also defining terms used by those sources.  He's leaving the terms to be privately interpreted by the reader (i.e. notorious and material).  Those are specific ecclesiastical/legal terms; you can't just look them up in Webster's dictionary.
    .

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    It's odd that you started this thread thinking Father agreed with you.
    He does in one area and in another area, he doesn't.  It's odd you can't see that difference.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 08:38:24 AM »
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  • Yes, like I said before, one would have to refer to the theological sources that Father includes in his bibliography for a more lengthy description; however, I have read other things Father has written that explains and applies those differences.  They can also be found on the internet. 

    It seems to me that you never read the whole article he wrote when you linked it in the OP.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked me to explain his position and post what you had already posted.

    Regardless, I'm not arguing with you about this.  


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #17 on: July 20, 2021, 08:41:02 AM »
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  • From Fr Cekada, Appdx 2:

    Quote
    In the case of heresy, warnings only come into play for the canonical crime of heresy. These are not required as a condition for committing the sin of heresy against the divine law.
    Ok, sure, plenty of people are guilty of the sin of heresy.  Either privately or openly. 
    .

    Quote
    The canonist Michel draws the clear distinction for us: “Pertinacity does not of necessity include long obstinacy by the
    heretic and warnings from the Church. A condition for the sin of heresy is one thing; a condition for the canonical crime of heresy, punishable by canon laws, is another.” (Michel, “Hérésie,”in DTC 6:2222)

    This is the crux of the matter.  Michel makes a distinction between the punishments for heresy.  You have the spiritual punishment and the canon law punishment. 
    .

    Quote
    It is a pope’s public sin of heresy in this sense that strips him of Christ’s authority. “If indeed such a situation would happen,”said the canonist Coronata. “he [the Roman Pontiff] would, by divine law, fall from office without any sentence.” (See above)
    When Michel says "Christ's authority" he is speaking of the spiritual authority of the papacy.  He's talking about the SPIRITUAL OFFICE.  It is clear from this quote and the one above, that the SIN of heresy causes a loss of spiritual authority.  No Trad should deny this.  This loss of spiritual authority is what Fr Chazal calls "spiritual impoundment".  This is why +Bellarmine says we should resist a bad pope.
    .
    The error of Fr Cekada is in saying that a pope can "fall from office" in a temporal/govt/political sense, without being convicted of a canonical crime.  As Michel says, there are conditions for being punished by canon law (i.e. "warnings come into play"), and these human/temporal laws are the only way that a pope loses his human/temporal office.
    .
    Conclusion:  The idea that a pope loses his spiritual authority by heresy is easily understood.  The secondary idea that a heretic pope would still retain his temporal office until the Church takes temporal action is not as understood, but still as true.  This is not a contradiction, nor is it a problem for Trads, because the material/temporal office is of very, very small importance.  The loss of spiritual authority is what is important.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #18 on: July 20, 2021, 08:43:53 AM »
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  • I read the article and read "that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming a true pope (or remaining one, if a pope embraces heresy during the course of his pontificate.)"

    Which divine law? Divine law is a law or revelation given to us directly from God, such as the 10 commandments for example.

    So which divine law prevents a heretic from becoming pope?

    Divine law is either ius divinum positivum or ius divinum naturale, depending on whether it is revealed or known by reason itself based on the nature of things.


    Quote from: Leo XIII, Satis cognitum
    it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

    Calling the proposition absurd, Leo XIII implies that it is known by reason itself that he who isn't even a member, cannot be head; hence this is ius divinum naturale.


    Quote from: Pius XII, Mystici corporis
    For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

    Pius XII says that schism, heresy, and apostasy are offenses which by their very own nature sever a man from the body of the Church. We don't need a revelation to recognize that schism, heresy, and apostasy on the one hand, and Church membership on the other hand, are incompatible. A Church member confesses the faith; a schismatic, heretic, or apostate confesses ideas contrary to the faith.


    Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice
    it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.
    [...]
    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    The reason, St. Robert gives, is: "he cannot be head of what he is not a member". Thus, we know by reason itself, that a heretic cannot in any way be Pope: ius divinum naturale.



    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #19 on: July 20, 2021, 08:58:35 AM »
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    We don't need a revelation to recognize that schism, heresy, and apostasy on the one hand, and Church membership on the other hand, are incompatible

    Oversimplification.  There are various types of heresy, and there are 2 types of Church membership.
    .

    Quote
    The reason, St. Robert gives, is: "he cannot be head of what he is not a member". Thus, we know by reason itself, that a heretic cannot in any way be Pope: ius divinum naturale.

    +Bellarmine even says that an occult heretic is still a member of the church externally, so he can still hold office, externally.  Lots of distinctions to be made, and you are ignoring them.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #20 on: July 20, 2021, 09:06:15 AM »
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  • Oversimplification.  There are various types of heresy, and there are 2 types of Church membership.

    I was answering the question "So which divine law prevents a heretic from becoming pope?", and not writing a dissertation about possible classifications of heretics.


    +Bellarmine even says that an occult heretic is still a member of the church externally, so he can still hold office, externally.  Lots of distinctions to be made, and you are ignoring them.

    St. Robert says: "he cannot be head of what he is not a member".
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #21 on: July 20, 2021, 09:16:42 AM »
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    St. Robert says: "he cannot be head of what he is not a member".

    And he also qualified this statement many different ways, which you apparently are unaware of or ignore.
    .
    Bellarmine: “Occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members… therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book De Ecclesia. …the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external”.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #22 on: July 20, 2021, 09:29:15 AM »
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  • Divine law is either ius divinum positivum or ius divinum naturale, depending on whether it is revealed or known by reason itself based on the nature of things.
    I mean *which* divine law? What is needed is, say for example, against the 1st or 2nd or ? commandment, or reference the pertinent divine revelation from Scripture, this is what is necessary.  To say anything is against Divine Law necessarily must at least be able to reference the specific Divine Law itself.


    Quote
    Quote from: Leo XIII, Satis cognitum
    Quote
    it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

    Calling the proposition absurd, Leo XIII implies that it is known by reason itself that he who isn't even a member, cannot be head; hence this is ius divinum naturale.
    The problem is the pope, albeit arguably, is not outside.


    Quote
    Quote from: Pius XII, Mystici corporis
    Quote
    For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

    Pius XII says that schism, heresy, and apostasy are offenses which by their very own nature sever a man from the body of the Church. We don't need a revelation to recognize that schism, heresy, and apostasy on the one hand, and Church membership on the other hand, are incompatible. A Church member confesses the faith; a schismatic, heretic, or apostate confesses ideas contrary to the faith.
    "Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.

    He *then* goes on to say:

    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy."

    You did not post the immediately preceding (bolded) parts to put the final sentence in context, where Pope Pius XII said that place is allowed in the Body of the Church for those whom Christ Himself did not exclude from the banquet (Mat. 9:11/footnote) and basically, that the Body of the Church includes sinners. Heresy is a sin, a heretic is a sinner. 

    He then reminds us that, to some degree at least, *all* sin severs man from the Body of the Church - which is true, no? But the sin of schism or heresy or apostasy severs a man from the Body of the Church worse than other sins because of the nature of those particular sins.



    Quote
    Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice
    Quote
    it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.
    [...]
    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    The reason, St. Robert gives, is: "he cannot be head of what he is not a member". Thus, we know by reason itself, that a heretic cannot in any way be Pope: ius divinum naturale.
    The problem here is, he *is* pope. Our knowledge of his sins of heresy in no way give us the authority to declare otherwise. Thankfully, God did not grant us either supreme nor various degrees of authority based on what we know. Can you imagine it otherwise?  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #23 on: July 20, 2021, 09:32:56 AM »
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  • And he also qualified this statement many different ways, which you apparently are unaware of or ignore.
    .
    Bellarmine: “Occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members… therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book De Ecclesia. …the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external”.

    Even then it's somewhat disputed and not a completely settled matter.  There are actually some theologians who held that occult heretics were NOT really part of the Church, but just appeared to be.  We'll never definitively settle this matter.  So I don't spend a lot of time on it, other than that it's interesting to understand the nature of the papacy and the Church.  Even if we could resolve our differences about what Bellarmine meant, it doesn't solve the problem since there are other opinions out there.

    I'm focused more on whether the Church can defect and whether we have a right to reject V2 and the NOM as Catholics.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #24 on: July 20, 2021, 09:34:30 AM »
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  • And he also qualified this statement many different ways, which you apparently are unaware of or ignore.
    .
    Bellarmine: “Occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members… therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book De Ecclesia. …the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external”.
    No, I'm not unaware. I just don't clutter up my post about divine law with distinctions, which are irrelevant in the given situation.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #25 on: July 20, 2021, 09:36:56 AM »
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  • Our knowledge of his sins of heresy in no way give us the authority to declare otherwise. Thankfully, God did not grant us either supreme nor various degrees of authority based on what we know. Can you imagine it otherwise?  

    No, this is not about "sin".  This is about the fact that public profession of the faith is one of the requirements for membership.  Sin, as sin, does not sever from the body, but publicly not having the faith certainly does; it's one of the requirements for membership listed by St. Robert.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #26 on: July 20, 2021, 09:44:12 AM »
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  • Thankfully, God did not grant us either supreme nor various degrees of authority based on what we know. Can you imagine it otherwise?  

    Yes, I can imagine it otherwise, because that's the situation that we are in with so many sedevacantists who rely on their own judgment in believing that they do have the authority to depose a pope. And now the sedes may say that heresy is not actually a sin. Or it's not the same thing as other sins.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #27 on: July 20, 2021, 10:15:50 AM »
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  • Quote
    I just don't clutter up my post about divine law with distinctions, which are irrelevant in the given situation.

    That's why your conclusions are wrong.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #28 on: July 20, 2021, 10:20:35 AM »
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  • Another interesting consideration is this.

    Take the case of a heretic priest, say, in the 1950s.  He's running around obstinately preaching heresy.  There were many of these already in the 1950s.  Does that priest still have jurisdiction to hear Confession?  Or has he been so thoroughly severed from the Church that he can no longer do so, since he's no member of the Church?

    I would say that this priest still has jurisdiction because he's a conduit for the bishop's jurisdiction ... until the bishop were to relieve him of duty.

    Now take the case of a heretic bishop, like, say, Cardinal Cushing.  Did he have jurisdiction or did he lose it?  Were all the priests in the Diocese of Boston then lacking in jurisdiction since Cushing was radically outside the Church?  I would again hold that Cushing retained jurisdiction because he was a conduit for papal jurisdiction, since all jurisdiction flows from the pope.

    But would Cushing then have any real authority?  Or is he just a passive/material conduit for jurisdiction?

    Now take it up to the Pope.  So, some theologians hold that even an Antipope could continue to serve as a conduit for jurisdiction (which comes from Christ) ... probably based on similar reasoning.  This actually addresses the "ecclesiavacantist" argument against sedevacantism.  In the case of an Antipope, bishops could still have ordinary jurisdiction flowing from Christ through the passive/material conduit of the Antipope, and then any bishops who were not themselves severed from the Church could actually exercise ordinary jurisdiction.

    So that's my view of things, that Bergoglio is a material pope and that he serves as a material conduit for jurisdiction, even though he has no jurisdiction himself ... and he certainly lacks any teaching authority due to his heresy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #29 on: July 20, 2021, 10:22:42 AM »
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  • Yes, I can imagine it otherwise, because that's the situation that we are in with so many sedevacantists who rely on their own judgment in believing that they do have the authority to depose a pope. And now the sedes may say that heresy is not actually a sin. Or it's not the same thing as other sins.

    You do realize, right?, that no one has "the authority to depose a pope" ... except God Himself.

    This is about the question of whether the Church has a right to "recede" from a heretic pope.

    We Traditional Catholics have all done exactly that.  We've "receded" from him and consider him impounded or "in quarantine" or in some such suspended state.  Father Chazal merely articulated what we all believe in practice anyway ...  well, except for the neo-SSPX.

     :facepalm: Uhm, it was Pope Pius XII who clearly taught that heresy is not "the same thing as other sins."  That is no sede invention.  In fact, that distinction was unanimous among the Church Fathers.