Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5

Author Topic: Election of a heretical pope  (Read 2036 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 10305
  • Reputation: +6216/-1742
  • Gender: Male
Election of a heretical pope
« on: July 19, 2021, 03:26:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • No Sede has ever attempted to refute Fr Cekada's conclusion on the changes made by St Pius X and Pius XII.  Whenever I bring it up, all one hears is ((crickets)).  Anyone want to educate me how this doesn't apply to V2 popes?
    .
    .
    II. SUSPENSION OF CENSURES AND IMPEDIMENTS
     ————————————————————————
    Having established the meaning of these terms in paragraph 34 of Pius XII’s Constitution, we can easily see the point of the law: to avoid endless wrangling about the validity of papal ɛƖɛctıons.

    It then becomes easy to answer the second question: “Does it lift all excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures for all the participants in a papal conclave?”

    The answer is yes.

    Does paragraph 34 also cover the case of an excommunicated cardinal who has been elected pope?

    Again, the answer is yes, because the Constitution used the terms active and passive ɛƖɛctıon, which mean, respectively, being able to vote and being able to be elected. So it is indeed correct to say that Pius XII’s Constitution explicitly allows an excommunicated cardinal to be validly elected pope. - Fr. Cekada
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2021, 04:03:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Forgive my ignorance, but I don't really understand. Who's saying John XXIII or Paul VI were excommunicated? I get that there's the concept of an excommunication latae sententiae, which people may apply to them, but AFAIK the usual charges against the two are either that their ɛƖɛctıons were illegal(i.e Siri Theory) or that they had apostatised altogether through heresy(which goes beyond the question of "can an excommunicated cardinal be elected" into territory more like "can a cardinal who's actually, for example, a Protestant, be elected").
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #2 on: July 19, 2021, 04:16:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • We're dealing with canon law here, and conclave law.  Apostasy, according to law, is a rejection of the entire Faith, not simply one or more doctrines.   
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2021, 04:21:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Doesn't the rest of the article written by Fr Cekada respond to how this doesn't apply to the Vatican II popes? I'm confused.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2021, 04:23:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Fr Cekada's opinion is irrelevant.  Law is law.
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #5 on: July 19, 2021, 04:27:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 19, 2021, 04:23:55 PM
    Fr Cekada's opinion is irrelevant.  Law is law.
    Despite the fact that his "opinion" is based on divine law?
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #6 on: July 19, 2021, 04:33:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • I don't know what his argument is, so why don't you post it?  Secondly, I suppose he will be saying that Pope St Pius X didn't know what he was doing, when he allowed excommunicated persons to be elected?  That's the only conclusion.  That St Pius X, who was surrounded by Modernists, didn't understand that the very changes he made to the election laws would allow such Modernists to be elected.  He must have been the dumbest pope ever.
    .
    Fr Cekada can argue all he wants that it doesn't apply to V2 popes.  But this dodges the question of WHY would St Pius X (and XII) make such changes to begin with?  What was the point?  Anyone who is unbiased, and who knows history, can readily see why they changed this law.
    Logged

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1867
    • Reputation: +759/-1134
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #7 on: July 19, 2021, 04:35:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 19, 2021, 04:33:04 PM
    I don't know what his argument is, so why don't you post it?  
    See the OP. There's a link ...
    Logged
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 05:03:33 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself

    This is Fr Cekada's argument...but it begs the question (or 2)...
    .
    1) There are various levels of heresy.  What types of heretics are barred?  Where is this laid out?
    .
    2) Where does Divine Law define heresy and schism?  It doesn't.  (Hint, God only wrote 1 book, Scripture.  All else is in the hands of the Church).
    .
    3) So where does the Church define heresy and schism?  How do we know if one is a heretic and schismatic (for there are various levels of each).  Answer:  Canon Law.
    .
    Fr Cekada's error is that he is assuming (falsely) that anyone can judge heresy/schism in the manner necessary to disqualify a candidate.  But that's not how heresy works, nor how canon law operates.  When canon lawyers say that a heretic is barred from election, they are talking of a person who is ALREADY JUDGED by the Church to be a heretic.  For example, a Greek Orthodox priest couldn't be elected (they are a known schismatic) or Billy Graham (a known heretic).
    Logged

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 10:04:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Judge?  Christ said, You will know them by their fruits! Outwardly.
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #10 on: July 20, 2021, 05:55:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 19, 2021, 04:27:30 PM
    Despite the fact that his "opinion" is based on divine law?
    I read the article and read "that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming a true pope (or remaining one, if a pope embraces heresy during the course of his pontificate.)"

    Which divine law? Divine law is a law or revelation given to us directly from God, such as the 10 commandments for example.

    So which divine law prevents a heretic from becoming pope?
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 06:35:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • In this article Father Cekada goes into more depth that the one posted in the OP.  

    When speaking of "divine law" canonists distinguish between the sin of heresy versus the crime of heresy.  The former being divine law, the latter being ecclesiastical law.    

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/TradsInfall.pdf

    Father is merely repeating (in the OP link and in this link) what pre-Vatican II canonists and theologians have stated.  They reference "divine law" as well.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 07:00:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I read the pdf article and it again references divine law, but without saying which divine law, it makes no sense to me. It seems logical to me that whatever divine law they are speaking of, would apply to all non-Catholics, not just the pope.  

    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10305
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #13 on: July 20, 2021, 07:27:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Again, Fr Cekada is begging the question, because he never defined what "notorious heresy" or "manifest heresy" is, according to Church Law.  He simply uses such terms as if anyone can interpret them privately, which is not true.  Notorious and manifest are canon law terms, and a pope is only guilty of such if found so by a Church declaration. 
    .
    Before a church decision, according to law, a heretic pope is considered an occult heretic and still a member of the Church (externally only).  An occult heretic would be spiritually dead and not a member.  An occult heretic would have NO SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY.  But would still hold material office.
    .
    The whole debate is between the difference of spiritual authority vs temporal office.  Spiritual authority is easily lost, due to ANY type of heresy.  Because all Catholics have the obligation to know their Faith and to fight those who are opposed to Truth.  Thus, as +Bellarmine tells us, we are to resist a bad pope (i.e. an occult heretic who has yet-to-be-deposed).  Because a bad pope has no spiritual authority, even if he still retains the (very minor, govt/political only) authority of his human/temporal office.
    .
    See the difference?  The pope's authority is not "all or none".  It's spiritual vs temporal.  The spiritual being far, far more important and far, far easier to lose.  The entire debate between +Bellarmine and Cajetan was over the govt/political/material office only.  It was assumed that everyone knew that the spiritual authority was gone the instant a pope gives into any kind of heresy.
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: ɛƖɛctıon of a heretical pope
    « Reply #14 on: July 20, 2021, 07:31:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • You keep saying Fr Cekada said this or that.  He is quoting other canonists and theologians.  If anything one would need to seek out the sources.  

    It's odd that you started this thread thinking Father agreed with you. 
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
    Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
    « previous next »