Author Topic: EENS reduced to meaningless formula (Read 1751 times)

Exurge · « **on:** April 09, 2014, 07:41:52 PM »

Quote

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis:
Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.

Who exactly were these "some" and why exactly did they reduce EENS to a meaningless formula?

Cantarella · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2014, 08:44:09 PM »

"Some" are the modernists. Especially well versed and learned men, even theologians, who adhere themselves to erroneous ideas such as rationalism, relativism, pantheism, materialism, etc. and want to reduce to a minimum the meaning of dogmas in order to satisfy the world's modern needs. They think Catholic heavenly dogmas may be expressed in terms affined to current human systems.

They reduce EENS to a meaningless formula when they make it possible salvation for non-Catholics. "The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing". There is an absolute necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to be saved.

Jehanne · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2014, 09:02:17 PM »

EENS becomes a "meaningless formula" when the modernists claim that non-Catholics can have the certainty of salvation. Of course, with that POV, one need not try to convert anyone to the One True Faith, and false ecuмenism and religious liberty immediately follow, and the Sacraments revert to "meaningless signs" which one need not bother even ever receiving. Catholicism reverts to atheism with a layer of "Catholic spirituality" on top:

Exurge · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2014, 09:03:13 PM »

Well, it would still be interesting to know exactly who they were and what they were saying.

Alcuin · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2014, 09:44:48 PM »

By their fruits you shall know them.

Ambrose · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2014, 12:37:19 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Well, it would still be interesting to know exactly who they were and what they were saying.

You bring up a good point. Pope Pius XII did not identify exactly to whom he was referring.

My opinion is that he was letting them know through this indirect method, that they were known and on notice, and that they must submit themselves to the Magisterium.

It appears to me that he is sparing these men's reputations in the hope that they will peacefully submit themselves to the correct teaching, without having to identify and charge them.

roscoe · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2014, 01:49:44 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis:
Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.

Who exactly were these "some" and why exactly did they reduce EENS to a meaningless formula?

MO is that this part of HG is a response supporting Fr Feeney. :detective:

Alcuin · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2014, 02:52:47 AM »

Quote

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis:
Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.

An example of a meaningless formula:

Quote

There's no salvation outside the Church but when one is outside and desires to be inside he isn't really outside but inside even though he's outside.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2014, 05:08:43 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis:
Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.

Who exactly were these "some" and why exactly did they reduce EENS to a meaningless formula?

The "some" applies to everyone, to all people who in any way alter the meaning of the dogma.

IOW, whoever does not believe that the dogma means exactly what it says, reduces it to a meaningless formula, they are the "some".

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2014, 05:13:03 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
Well, it would still be interesting to know exactly who they were and what they were saying.

You bring up a good point. Pope Pius XII did not identify exactly to whom he was referring.

My opinion is that he was letting them know through this indirect method, that they were known and on notice, and that they must submit themselves to the Magisterium.

It appears to me that he is sparing these men's reputations in the hope that they will peacefully submit themselves to the correct teaching, without having to identify and charge them.

You are one of the "some". You believe there is salvation without the sacrament, therefore for those outside the Church - same as LoT and the other avid BODers who believe non-members become "members by desire", die and go to heaven - which reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.

Ambrose · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2014, 07:29:20 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Exurge
Well, it would still be interesting to know exactly who they were and what they were saying.

You bring up a good point. Pope Pius XII did not identify exactly to whom he was referring.

My opinion is that he was letting them know through this indirect method, that they were known and on notice, and that they must submit themselves to the Magisterium.

It appears to me that he is sparing these men's reputations in the hope that they will peacefully submit themselves to the correct teaching, without having to identify and charge them.

You are one of the "some". You believe there is salvation without the sacrament, therefore for those outside the Church - same as LoT and the other avid BODers who believe non-members become "members by desire", die and go to heaven - which reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.

You have adopted a heresy that did not exist at the time of Humani Generis.

soulguard · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2014, 08:36:22 AM »

Baptism of blood and baptism of desire are spoken of by St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologiae

He is more smarter than yew.

End of debate. :judge:

Ladislaus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2014, 08:43:56 AM »

It becomes "meaningless formula" when it essentially gets reduced to a tautology by redefining the term "outside the Church". Since the dogmatic formula is well known, the only way to mess with it and reject it is to redefine "outside the Church" or the Church. In other words, you need to undermine ecclesiology.

Major: There's no salvation outside the Church.

Minor: People of "good disposition" can be saved.

Conclusion: People of "good disposition" are within the Church.

There's no salvation outside of those who have a "good disposition".

There's no salvation outside of those who can be saved. [reduces to a tautology]

I'm guessing that he's condemning the principles behind Suprema Haec with this statement.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2014, 08:46:21 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

Baptism of blood and baptism of desire are spoken of by St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologiae

He is more smarter than yew.

End of debate. :judge:

Where to start on this one?

St. Thomas speaks of how Our Lady was conceived in Original Sin.

He's "more smarter than yew".

End of debate.

Theologians have found 40 material errors in the works of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Also, St. Thomas teaches that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are required for supernatural faith and for salvation.

So the same people who would beat us on the head saying that we must accept the "authority" of St. Thomas Aquinas hypocritcally reject his teaching that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are required for salvation. They believe what they want to believe because they want to believe it.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2014, 08:47:52 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
Well, it would still be interesting to know exactly who they were and what they were saying.

You bring up a good point. Pope Pius XII did not identify exactly to whom he was referring.

He wanted to spare calling out Cushing by name as well as the authors of Suprema Haec.

People, if SH does not reduce EENS to a meaningless formula by stating that anyone who has a "good disposion of the will" can be saved, then I'd LOVE to see what reduces EENS to a meaningless formula [short of verbatim denying it as Cushing did].