Author Topic: Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive  (Read 3465 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
« on: February 01, 2016, 03:10:10 PM »
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  • As of 1 Feb 2016 there remain only five living bishops who were consecrated during the reign of Pope Pius XII (who died on 9 Oct 1958)

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    Offline Matthew

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 03:13:32 PM »
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  • Of course, this only applies to those who believe that Pope Pius XII was the last pope. Sedevacantists disagree as to which pope was the last valid one.

    But for those who subscribe to certain extreme forms of sedevacantism/ecclesiavacantism -- basically home aloners who believe we can't get into any "lifeboats" or consecrate bishops without papal authority -- the clock is ticking.

    I use this as evidence for why the position is stupid.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 03:16:16 PM »
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  • P.S. Isn't it strange that 3 of the 5 oldest bishops are from South America? And NONE are from the United States or Europe?  For some reason, you just don't live as long in those countries. Interesting...

    These 5 men have been BISHOPS for anywhere from 57 to 61 years. Incredible!

    So they were consecrated when Bishop Williamson (the oldest of the +Lefebvre line bishops) was 14 to 18 years old.

    The youngest of the +Lefebvre bishops, Bishop Fellay, was born 12 Apr 1958. So +Fellay was only 15 days old when the youngest of these 5 bishops was consecrated. The other 4 have been BISHOP longer than +Fellay has been alive!

    And remember that +Fellay was consecrated at age 30.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 01:10:44 AM »
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  • To my understanding, it is only a tiny minority within the sedevacantes that believe that it was only the Pius XII consecrated Bishops that are valid bishops.

    What sedevacantes and non-sedevacantes believe, is that the bishops consecrated in the new rite, post 1970, are not valid bishops, and therefore, neither are the priests they ordain priests. There still are a few pre-new rite bishops around today.

    I for one take no chances, I only go with priests ordained by the SSPX bishops.

    Can you post that list till like 1968?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 05:32:50 AM »
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  • .

    MATTHEW:                    


    Tradhican is asking you to please post this list showing bishops consecrated up to 1968:



    Quote from: Last Tradhican
    To my understanding, it is only a tiny minority within the sedevacantes that believe that it was only the Pius XII consecrated Bishops that are valid bishops.

    What sedevacantes and non-sedevacantes believe, is that the bishops consecrated in the new rite, post 1970, are not valid bishops, and therefore, neither are the priests they ordain priests. There still are a few pre-new rite bishops around today.

    I for one take no chances, I only go with priests ordained by the SSPX bishops.


    Can you post that list till like 1968?



    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 11:15:08 AM »
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  • In mission countries men were often consecrated VERY YOUNG, just a couple years after ordination ... in order to help meet the needs of the faithful across sparsely populated regions.  They had the energy to do this work.  Also, they seemed to do this more in Latin America as well.  That's where most of the oldest bishops come from; a couple were Jesuits who worked clandestinely behind the Iron Curtain (like "Ambrose" LOL) and these too were consecrated very young.

    If you look at Oldest bishops (vs. years of consecration) the currently-oldest bishop alive is an American (though the name looks foreign ... perhaps son of immigrants).

    Offline Matthew

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 01:53:15 PM »
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  • I don't actually have that list. Someone e-mailed it to me.

    Perhaps it's available online? I haven't even tried to Google search for it.

    I do know that I've seen it before, and that last time there were significantly more bishops on the list. I don't remember what month/year it was. CathInfo has so many posts that it's pretty well buried.

    UPDATE: Here is where it was taken from:

    http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.html
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 02:39:59 PM »
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  • There's about 100 bishops there to 1969. I checked the ages of the youngest which I assumed would be all those consecrated in 1969 and they were all 80-90,
    Only one 80 and one 90, the average about 85 maybe 86. They could all be gone in a few years.
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    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 03:22:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Of course, this only applies to those who believe that Pope Pius XII was the last pope. Sedevacantists disagree as to which pope was the last valid one.

    But for those who subscribe to certain extreme forms of sedevacantism/ecclesiavacantism -- basically home aloners who believe we can't get into any "lifeboats" or consecrate bishops without papal authority -- the clock is ticking.



    Matthew, God bless you and yours.

    You describe an extreme form of sede vacante, home aloners; Some that reject the SSPX and CMRI bishops?  These could be compared to an extreme form of novus ordo, modernists, who dismiss the SSPX and CMRI bishops.

    If so, there might then be a middle ground, a lesser extreme form of sede vacante that recognize the SSPX and CMRI bishops.  In the same manner (from my perspective), one might imagine a less extreme form of novus ordo with (pre-vatican2 rite) bishops, say for example the SSPX.

    So here, in this example, CMRI and SSPX share a middle ground, a pre-vatican2 orientation.  The bishops of these two orginizations clearly continue Latin Rite Catholic tradition, sede vacante or not.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Arvinger

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 05:13:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Matthew
    Of course, this only applies to those who believe that Pope Pius XII was the last pope. Sedevacantists disagree as to which pope was the last valid one.

    But for those who subscribe to certain extreme forms of sedevacantism/ecclesiavacantism -- basically home aloners who believe we can't get into any "lifeboats" or consecrate bishops without papal authority -- the clock is ticking.



    Matthew, God bless you and yours.

    You describe an extreme form of sede vacante, home aloners; Some that reject the SSPX and CMRI bishops?  These could be compared to an extreme form of novus ordo, modernists, who dismiss the SSPX and CMRI bishops.

    If so, there might then be a middle ground, a lesser extreme form of sede vacante that recognize the SSPX and CMRI bishops.  In the same manner (from my perspective), one might imagine a less extreme form of novus ordo with (pre-vatican2 rite) bishops, say for example the SSPX.

    So here, in this example, CMRI and SSPX share a middle ground, a pre-vatican2 orientation.  The bishops of these two orginizations clearly continue Latin Rite Catholic tradition, sede vacante or not.


    Some sedevacantists believe that an antipope can validly appoint bishops under supplied jurisdiction for good of the Chuch - that is an attempt to reconcile sedevacantism with the problem of Apostolic Succession.  

    Offline ubipetrus

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #10 on: February 02, 2016, 07:27:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    So here, in this example, CMRI and SSPX share a middle ground, a pre-vatican2 orientation.  The bishops of these two orginizations clearly continue Latin Rite Catholic tradition, sede vacante or not.

    That really is the only possible basis for claiming that the Catholic Church still exists.  Of the five remaining bishops consecrated during the time of Pope Pius XII, none of them have asserted or claimed to be real (traditional) Catholic bishops.  We really need to take a good honest hard look at the traditional bishops, such as we have them today.  Who else (with any possibility whatsoever of real apostolic authority) will give us the Faith of all the great saints?  That is the Faith I have come to the Church to receive and be nourished in and edified by, and to which I have a right as a baptized Catholic.

    Perhaps people thought that things would turn around while some of these ancient old timers remain, but I have known for about 20 years that that will not happen.
    "O Jerusalem!  How often would I have gathered together your children, as the hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not?" - Matthew 23:37


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #11 on: February 02, 2016, 07:40:28 PM »
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  • Sedeprivationism completely solves the ecclesiavacantist problem.

    Offline McCork

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #12 on: February 02, 2016, 07:43:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Sedeprivationism completely solves the ecclesiavacantist problem.


    Yes, and so-called sedeprivationism says that Francis is NOT a true pope.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #13 on: February 02, 2016, 07:57:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: ubipetrus
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    So here, in this example, CMRI and SSPX share a middle ground, a pre-vatican2 orientation.  The bishops of these two orginizations clearly continue Latin Rite Catholic tradition, sede vacante or not.

    That really is the only possible basis for claiming that the Catholic Church still exists.  Of the five remaining bishops consecrated during the time of Pope Pius XII, none of them have asserted or claimed to be real (traditional) Catholic bishops.  We really need to take a good honest hard look at the traditional bishops, such as we have them today.  Who else (with any possibility whatsoever of real apostolic authority) will give us the Faith of all the great saints?  That is the Faith I have come to the Church to receive and be nourished in and edified by, and to which I have a right as a baptized Catholic.

    Perhaps people thought that things would turn around while some of these ancient old timers remain, but I have known for about 20 years that that will not happen.


    In much the same manner as the captain of a ship battens the hatches before a storm, the popes before Vatican2 were disciplined in their duty to protect the Faith.  By examining the activities of the Church a mere hundred years prior to Vatican2, the methods and means of this modern revolution is revealed (I arranged a brief historical survey on the homepage of http://TraditionalCatholic.net with linked references therein).

    I think anyone can recognize the greatness of these popes in their efforts to protect the Catholic Faith.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline ubipetrus

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    Ecclesiavacantism update - only 5 bishops left alive
    « Reply #14 on: February 02, 2016, 08:02:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Some sedevacantists believe that an antipope can validly appoint bishops under supplied jurisdiction for good of the Chuch - that is an attempt to reconcile sedevacantism with the problem of Apostolic Succession.

    It was an interesting thought, suggested by none less than John Lane, but it doesn't hold up under some extremely important considerations.

    However, there have been, at times, antipopes who have made episcopal appointments which were allowed to stand and be accepted as having been lawfully appointed.  Whenever this happened however, the antipope involved was nevertheless still a Catholic, someone who could be followed by Catholics without risk of their soul (in terms of his teachings and rulings and other official actions).  In fact, very few of the 41 big historic antipopes have ever been heretical or even erroneous:  Novatius is one (who went on to start the Novatians) and Vigilius is the other (who favored the erroneous "three chapters" and the three clerics who pushed them while Pope Silverius was still alive, but who turned against them when he became Pope), being the only two I know of.

    But these were all antipopes who attempted a Papal reign while some other legitimate Pope also reigned.  Paul VI and those coming after him have sometimes been called "antipopes," but their papal delusions are rejected not owing to the presence of a real Pope (unverifiable Siri hypothesis notwithstanding), but owing to their flagrantly heretical contradiction of the infallible teachings of the Church as confirmed by 260+ real Popes of the Church; they are in fact more properly referred to as heresiarchs.

    A true Catholic, mistaken for a Pope by himself and by some part of the Church, would do his best to choose truly qualified Catholic men to be bishops, if anything competing with their papal claimant rivals for sheer orthodoxy in their choices and actions.  A true Pope could therefore reasonably confirm and approve most or even all of the episcopal choices and appointments by such an antipope.

    But a heresiarch appoints fellow heretics of like distorted mind and distorted theology, and as such none of his episcopal appointments should ever be permitted to be confirmed or approved.  What sheer insanity it would be to assign to a heresiarch the authority to decide who is to be "approved" as a Catholic bishop and who is not!  The John Lane suggestion, reasonable enough for most historical antipopes, can have no meaningful application to our present day situation wherein what we have is no mere antipope but heresiarch.
    "O Jerusalem!  How often would I have gathered together your children, as the hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not?" - Matthew 23:37

     

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