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Author Topic: Eastern vs. Indult  (Read 617 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Eastern vs. Indult
« on: October 16, 2021, 08:11:33 PM »
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  • I have a question regarding the attendance of Eastern (Catholic) Rite Liturgies. Many trads are against attending indult Masses for two major reasons; The fact that they believe their sacraments are doubtfully valid and because they are in "full communion" with Rome, which means that they accept the novus ordo and vatican 2. Now on one hand, the Eastern sacraments are certainly valid, but on the other these Eastern parishes are in full communion with Rome as well, fully accepting the novus ordo and vatican 2 also, right? Many trads see the indult groups as part of the "conciliar church". If this is so, wouldn't the Eastern churches be considered part of the "conciliar church" as well? I've heard quite a few trads say it's not ok to attend the indult Mass even if the sacraments are valid, but I haven't heard this said about Eastern Liturgies. I realize that the most vital issue here is validity, but aside from the validity issue, what other reasons do some trads have when they say it's ok to attend an Eastern Liturgy but not the indult? Thoughts?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern vs. Indult
    « Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 10:10:38 PM »
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  • Was the Eastern part of Catholicism spared the Crisis in the Church? No crisis of doctrine, morality, practice, the Faith itself?

    Somehow I have a hard time believing that. I'm pretty sure Vatican II was a universal phenomenon -- Bishops from all over the world, of all peoples and races, signed on to the docuмents and went back home and implemented them. We're talking ALL peoples -- black, brown, white, yellow, red, you name it. That INCLUDES East and West.

    I think those seeking a "solution" in the Eastern regions of Catholicism think that the Crisis is primarily about the Mass. It's not. I'll give you a hint: even if you're in the East, Francis would still be your Pope. Long story short, the Crisis remains.

    I've never been a fan of "going Eastern" as a solution to the Crisis. I'm biased, I'll admit. Born and raised in the Traditional Catholic movement, so I'm a firm believer in the latter.

    The idea of a family of white Irish-Germans going to a Byzantine, Russian, Ukrainian, Lebanese, Coptic or any other Rite is kind of a joke to me as well. We're not even 1% any of those Eastern peoples. Why would I go there? There is zero anything suggesting that I *belong* in such a place. It's just not my place. Not my culture, not my language, not my people, not my heritage, not my liturgy. My ancestors went to the Tridentine (Roman Rite) Mass. That's where I belong.

    If God wanted me in an Eastern Rite, he would have given me SOME connection to those cultures. But He didn't. Ergo.
    (It's not like God couldn't have *easily* arranged that I be born in one of those countries.)

    Grow where you are planted, I say.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eastern vs. Indult
    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2021, 10:32:07 AM »
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  • The idea of a family of white Irish-Germans going to a Byzantine, Russian, Ukrainian, Lebanese, Coptic or any other Rite is kind of a joke to me as well. We're not even 1% any of those Eastern peoples. Why would I go there? There is zero anything suggesting that I *belong* in such a place. It's just not my place. Not my culture, not my language, not my people, not my heritage, not my liturgy. My ancestors went to the Tridentine (Roman Rite) Mass. That's where I belong.

    Byzantine (Ruthenian) as largely culture-agnostic, and there you'll find all kinds of people who aren't tied to those cultures ... some Slovaks, some Hungarians, and lots of Americans who speak no foreign languages (including many of their clergy).

    Nevertheless, the question is whether you go Home Alone vs. an Eastern Rite (if that's your only alternative).  Indeed, as the OP pointed out, their Orders/Sacraments are valid (vs. usually doubtful with Indult priests ... unless you can find one who was pre-V2 ordained or an SSPX refugee, who doesn't also distribute Holy Communion from the tabernacle).  You do have to be on the lookout for an occasional bi-ritual NO priest that helps out.  But, unfortunately, that's the same situation these days with the SSPX.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eastern vs. Indult
    « Reply #3 on: October 18, 2021, 10:41:21 AM »
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  • Somehow I have a hard time believing that. I'm pretty sure Vatican II was a universal phenomenon -- Bishops from all over the world, of all peoples and races, signed on to the docuмents and went back home and implemented them. We're talking ALL peoples -- black, brown, white, yellow, red, you name it. That INCLUDES East and West.

    Well, it was and it wasn't.  Just like most NO Catholics know little about what was actually IN Vatican II, they know even less in the Eastern Rites.  I doubt that many of their clergy have read it.  People in the pew noticed the changes almost entirely due to the changes in the Mass.  As far as the doctrine, heck, 90% of the garbage that appeared in V2 was already widely spread around among the bishops and the clergy long before the Council.  And there's no doubt some of that same Modernist contamination in the Eastern Rites, but my take is that it's little different than the Modernist contamination that was already everywhere before Vatican II.

    I know that I myself would never have become a Traditional Catholic were it not for the NOM.  Had they merely published V2 and left the Tridentine Mass intact, there would likely be no Traditional movement to begin with.  That's where it all hits home ... in the Mass.  Otherwise, you'd just keep offering and/or attending the Tridentine Mass while objecting to some of the content of the V2 docuмents.

    Catherine Emmerick actually referred to the changes in the Church primarily afflicting the Western wing of the Church (i.e. the Roman Rite).

    Really, the greatest doctrinal changes in V2 revolved around religious indifferentism, and that was running rampant throughout the Church well before Vatican II.  Even if you're not a Feeneyite, you need to look at what Father Feeney was up against ... overtly heretical statements constantly being made by Cardinal Cushing and a myriad of Jesuit priests that he was battling against.  Some of their statements are as bad if not worse than anything you'll find today, and that dates back to the 1940s.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern vs. Indult
    « Reply #4 on: October 18, 2021, 11:01:12 AM »
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  • It is a sedevacantist idea, crazily adopted by some careless non-sede traditionalists, that it is a bad thing to be in full communion with Rome and one should prefer a Mass outside it to one within it.

    It's crazy to deny the Crisis in the Church.

    The recent popes have been AT COMPLETE ODDS, as in complete contradiction, with all the other popes in history. You can't be a fool and say, "I support them both." because that would be holding a contradiction. "I think a circle is round AND I think a circle is square. No problems here, I'm a peacemaker!"

    As Our Lord said -- no man can have two masters. You can EITHER be faithful to the Catholic Church as it always was, OR you can be faithful to the new church of Vatican II. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I love God AND I love the devil. I love everybody!" You absolutely have to choose. The two are at eternal and total war with each other. You can't "love" them both.

    Now I don't know what exactly to "do" with these recent popes. I personally don't believe that deposing them (I know, I know... declaring them already deposed) does anything. Maybe the pope's authority has been disabled, impeded, blocked, paused, or put in the attic. I don't know. But what I DO know is that I must hold fast to the Catholic Faith as it was handed down by the Apostles. That much I know with the certainty of Faith.

    So we AT LEAST have to be "apparently disobedient" to these usurpers, so as to be obedient to the Faith of the Apostles and the Catholic Church which is much older than them!

    But yes -- being on good terms with destroyers who have taken over the Catholic Church and who are in an ongoing program of destruction to the present day -- that is compromising and a lack of fidelity to Eternal Rome (as +ABL called it) and the eternal Catholic Faith.

    Being "in full communion" with Modernist Rome is like wining and dining the murderers who butchered your parents and siblings, and who are currently engaged in plans to murder the rest of your extended family. What kind of son does such a thing?
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    Offline Dingbat

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    Re: Eastern vs. Indult
    « Reply #5 on: October 18, 2021, 11:24:02 AM »
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  •  Indult Traditionalism is a perfectly legitimate traditional Catholic position and has many more serious arguments in its favor than either 63-year SVism or extreme Resistance R&R. Many of the original traditionalists were in fact Indult traditionalists for a long while, seeking approval either from Rome or the local Bishop in order that there may visibly be Peace and Unity in the Church. When Eastern Rites are not available, I go to both St. Peter's Fraternity/Indult/Diocesan TLM's as well as SSPX when available.

    I would suggest you go to both Eastern Rites as well as to the Indult if you have them near you. Both are good places to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Meanwhile, the true place where you shouldn't go is a schismatic sede mass.