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Offline confederate catholic

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Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2019, 11:35:39 AM »
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  • actually the eastern rites had been heavily latinized in mostly a bad way by Jesuits. The changes gave them an opportunity to return to some of their traditional expressions which were unjustly suppressed by the Jesuits. The ultra conservative wing are not traditional the changes were legitimate and the priest was excommunicated, not automatic but by trial. actually the whole thing was a mess.

    Stubborn the modernist thing lives in every parish, the liturgy however is not the problem so most people who just attend a liturgy don't experience it much outside of Maronite churches who have a Chaldean or local Roman crap diocese. in the south and west you're unlikely to see female altar servers (which in itself is a misnomer is since anyone male or female is allowed in the bema which is the area in front of the altar since it is a choir area. most females seen even in these liturgies don't enter the altar area. its the equivalent of having females carrying things and entering the choir and staying there in a Latin liturgy. obviously this is a modernist thing but as Ladislas pointed out not liturgy invalidation). modernism is there if you stick around long enough, it is not as widespread since no one monkeyed around with the liturgy or theology
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #46 on: March 14, 2019, 02:34:45 PM »
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  • It really comes down to,what gets you out the door to get to Mass.  For me, it is that I want my kids, my wife and me to be present at Calvary continued and to receive a valid Holy Communion.  The other aspects of mass are all secondary to me:  community of likeminded Catholics, the sermon, gong to mass in the Rite of my ancestors, etc.  

    The primary consideration outweighs the secondary, so that is why I go to the eastern rites.  So long as the priest is not teaching heresy, which I have never encountered at any eastern rite Church, the primary consideration for me is to keep getting to Mass and receiving Holy Communion so long as God permits me to do so.  

    I don’t care if the priest understands the crisis in the Church or preaches on it, (which you won’t hear in the eastern rites, since they are clueless on this point) so long as he doesn’t teach heresy against the Faith, which I haven’t seen.  I keep my focus squarely on the primary consideration.  


    Online forlorn

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #47 on: March 14, 2019, 02:41:27 PM »
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  • byzcat you'd be shown the door.

    markus, this is somewhat true, in eastern law you would be encouraged to attend in order
    your rite
    if not available
    another similar eastern rite
    the orthodox equivalent
    if none of the the above
    western liturgy
    Uh what? You'd be encouraged to go to a schismatic Mass before a Latin Mass? 

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #48 on: March 14, 2019, 04:18:26 PM »
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  • yes. our obligation is fulfilled by the office so you would be encouraged to attend either the Sunday office or liturgy of the orthodox equivalent. until the eastern code was promulgated, liturgy would not have been encouraged, either Roman or Orthodox
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #49 on: March 16, 2019, 12:16:42 AM »
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  • Well, I'm sure they were SUPPOSED to register at their parish.  I doubt everyone did, and I don't think there were canonical penalties for not doing so.  Now, if you weren't somehow active in the parish, you'd probably undergo some questioning if you requested some of the Sacraments that require certificates and/or preparation ... Baptism, Confirmation, Matrimony, etc.  But even then I'm sure if you had the priest call the Eastern Rite priest and vouch for the fact that you attend regularly, they would likely not deny you even those Sacraments.

    But perhaps someone who was around and old enough to remember those days could chime in on this matter.
    Prior to the 1983 Code of Canon Law a great emphasis was made on going only to the parish within whose boundries you lived. If you were not registered in the parish (and this is true even today in many parishes) your children might not get baptized, you could have problems getting married in the Church, and there could be problems being buried from that church.  


    Online forlorn

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #50 on: March 16, 2019, 10:09:18 AM »
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  • Prior to the 1983 Code of Canon Law a great emphasis was made on going only to the parish within whose boundries you lived. If you were not registered in the parish (and this is true even today in many parishes) your children might not get baptized, you could have problems getting married in the Church, and there could be problems being buried from that church.  
    Well I wasn't around back then, but from what I gather from people I know and based on pragmatism, I don't think they'd be huge sticklers about having to go to the church you technically lived in. The Mass that's most convenient for you to go to could vary for a number of different reasons, maybe the closest church isn't technically in the same parish you go to, maybe you visit family on Sundays so you go to their local Mass instead, etc. 

    Of course you'd be registered in a parish and that's where your kids would get their Sacraments, etc. but that wasn't always the same parish you were technically living in. Sometimes if you were living in the countryside, you and your next door neighbour 2 minutes down the road might send your kids off to schools in different villages, and your kids would get their Sacraments through their schools in their respective villages(so different parishes) even if your homes were technically in the same parish. As long as they got their Communion and Confirmation in the same place, what would it matter? I know of a number of cases of that sort of thing prior to 1983 without any issues, and I was in a situation sort of similar to that(went to a school and got all my Sacraments in a neighbouring parish), albeit after 1983.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #51 on: March 16, 2019, 04:39:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    yes. our obligation is fulfilled by the office so you would be encouraged to attend either the Sunday office or liturgy of the orthodox equivalent. until the eastern code was promulgated, liturgy would not have been encouraged, either Roman or Orthodox
    what is being down voted here, me or the eastern canons? 
    I don't understand the mentality of disapproval of the person pointing out church law. If you have another interpretation of the law point it out, if you're not liking the law because of its difference between the Roman canons and the Eastern I can't help you. Pius X and previous Popes put allowances in place for communicating with heretics on case by case basis for Jesuits and others working in the Middle East long before the 1917  code. The 1917 code is not a panacea either it's the best we have in the Latin Church.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Online forlorn

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #52 on: March 16, 2019, 06:29:58 PM »
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  • what is being down voted here, me or the eastern canons?
    I don't understand the mentality of disapproval of the person pointing out church law. If you have another interpretation of the law point it out, if you're not liking the law because of its difference between the Roman canons and the Eastern I can't help you. Pius X and previous Popes put allowances in place for communicating with heretics on case by case basis for Jesuits and others working in the Middle East long before the 1917  code. The 1917 code is not a panacea either it's the best we have in the Latin Church.
    It's just shocking that schismatic "masses" are preferred to Catholic masses of a different rite. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #53 on: March 16, 2019, 07:59:57 PM »
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  • It really comes down to,what gets you out the door to get to Mass.  For me, it is that I want my kids, my wife and me to be present at Calvary continued and to receive a valid Holy Communion.  The other aspects of mass are all secondary to me:  community of likeminded Catholics, the sermon, gong to mass in the Rite of my ancestors, etc.  

    The primary consideration outweighs the secondary, so that is why I go to the eastern rites.  So long as the priest is not teaching heresy, which I have never encountered at any eastern rite Church, the primary consideration for me is to keep getting to Mass and receiving Holy Communion so long as God permits me to do so.  

    I don’t care if the priest understands the crisis in the Church or preaches on it, (which you won’t hear in the eastern rites, since they are clueless on this point) so long as he doesn’t teach heresy against the Faith, which I haven’t seen.  I keep my focus squarely on the primary consideration.  

    I'm the same way.  I have a very high threshold for red-lighting a valid Mass or Liturgy and feeling that I can skip my obligation.  I too have never heard heresy taught by an Eastern Rite priest.  Liberalism to one extent or another, yes, but nothing more than you might find at any even Latin Rite pre-Vatican II parish.  In a Ukrainian Rite church a few months ago, I heard a stronger defense of EENS than I had ever heard at any SSPX-aligned chapel.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #54 on: March 16, 2019, 08:56:55 PM »
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  • What did the priest say that you wouldn't hear at the SSPX?  Just curious.  

    And how would you distinguish liberalism from heresy?

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #55 on: March 16, 2019, 10:11:22 PM »
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  • I don’t care if the priest understands the crisis in the Church or preaches on it, (which you won’t hear in the eastern rites, since they are clueless on this point)
    I'm not so sure they are clueless.

    I grew up in a Ukrainian Catholic church which also had a lot of Roman Rite refugees, which is how I got to know about the problems in the Roman rite. The Roman refugees eventually arranged to have priests visit and say the Latin Mass at a rented place. For reasons I forget, one Sunday they had a priest (SSPX) but the rented place wasn't available, and the Ukrainian parish let them use the church. The parish leader at the time was later ordained; he certainly understood something of the problems in the Church. I couldn't imagine any N.O. parish letting the SSPX use their church at that time. I am fairly sure the eparchy also had to know about this.

    Most of the Ukrainians in the parish had been to a N.O. at some point. It was obvious to most of us that the N.O. was focused on the congregation rather than God.

    At another point in my life I was friends with a granddaughter of a Ruthenian Catholic priest, and her family thought much the same - the N.O. was man-centered.


    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #56 on: March 16, 2019, 11:16:22 PM »
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    It's just shocking that schismatic "masses" are preferred to Catholic masses of a different rite. 
    You have to understand that most of the rules about schism as understood now have much more to do with Protestant trouble the west has had. Remember that most councils held were attended by the Orthodox. 99.9% of real difference between Catholics and Specifically most Oriental Orthodox and the majority of Eastern Orthodox is ancient politics. the rest is the role of the papacy. For the rest of the orthodox the devision is them misrepresenting Catholic belief.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #57 on: March 17, 2019, 12:24:49 AM »
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  • Well I wasn't around back then, but from what I gather from people I know and based on pragmatism, I don't think they'd be huge sticklers about having to go to the church you technically lived in. The Mass that's most convenient for you to go to could vary for a number of different reasons, maybe the closest church isn't technically in the same parish you go to, maybe you visit family on Sundays so you go to their local Mass instead, etc.

    Of course you'd be registered in a parish and that's where your kids would get their Sacraments, etc. but that wasn't always the same parish you were technically living in. Sometimes if you were living in the countryside, you and your next door neighbour 2 minutes down the road might send your kids off to schools in different villages, and your kids would get their Sacraments through their schools in their respective villages(so different parishes) even if your homes were technically in the same parish. As long as they got their Communion and Confirmation in the same place, what would it matter? I know of a number of cases of that sort of thing prior to 1983 without any issues, and I was in a situation sort of similar to that(went to a school and got all my Sacraments in a neighbouring parish), albeit after 1983.
    Prior to the Code of 1983 if you did not live within the parish boundry then they would not allow your children to receive instruction if your home did not fall within the territory of the parish itself. You could live next door to the church and if your house was not in the physical territory of that parish you were unwelcome in that church. I frequently heard stories of the priest standing at the doors of the church and if he saw someone who he knew lived outside the jurisdiction of his parish he would turn them away.

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #58 on: March 17, 2019, 07:29:50 AM »
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  • I'm not so sure they are clueless.

    I grew up in a Ukrainian Catholic church which also had a lot of Roman Rite refugees, which is how I got to know about the problems in the Roman rite. The Roman refugees eventually arranged to have priests visit and say the Latin Mass at a rented place. For reasons I forget, one Sunday they had a priest (SSPX) but the rented place wasn't available, and the Ukrainian parish let them use the church. The parish leader at the time was later ordained; he certainly understood something of the problems in the Church. I couldn't imagine any N.O. parish letting the SSPX use their church at that time. I am fairly sure the eparchy also had to know about this.

    Most of the Ukrainians in the parish had been to a N.O. at some point. It was obvious to most of us that the N.O. was focused on the congregation rather than God.

    At another point in my life I was friends with a granddaughter of a Ruthenian Catholic priest, and her family thought much the same - the N.O. was man-centered.
    I am only relating from my experience, so I agree with you that some easterners might be better informed about what’s really going on in the Church, it’s just that I haven’t seen it.  It might be that many are in the know but do not talk about it publicly.  I was told recently that there are about 3,500 Ukrainian rite priests, so with that many, I have met only a small fraction of them.  This is not even counting the thousands of others priests in other different eastern churches.  

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #59 on: March 17, 2019, 07:31:45 AM »
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  • yes. our obligation is fulfilled by the office so you would be encouraged to attend either the Sunday office or liturgy of the orthodox equivalent. until the eastern code was promulgated, liturgy would not have been encouraged, either Roman or Orthodox
    I don't understand this.  Where does the Catholic Church teach that an Eastern Rite Catholic should go to an Orthodox service at all.
    **Gave up posting for Lent** If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

     

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