Author Topic: Eastern Rites (Read 5855 times)

Bellato · « **Reply #75 on:** March 22, 2019, 11:07:32 PM »

Quote from: confederate catholic on March 22, 2019, 02:36:08 PM

1- I quoted the very article you cited which stated that there were conditions already in place for going to receive sacraments in need

2- You are asking me to quote from canon law which did not exist

3- Canons which do exist are not interpreted by laypersons

4- In the east we cite church fathers, St. Athanasius required his clergy to commune semi arians

1. You were not talking about receiving sacraments in need, I.e. confession in danger of death, you were asserting that eastern Catholics were permitted to actively participate in the worship of schismatics prior to Vatican II. The author of the linked article states in his conclusion:

To summarize, we may recall that the Holy Office said that it is not so much a matter of whether schismatic worship contains anything objectionable to the Faith; rather, the problem is the very participation in worship with schismatics. By participating in schismatic and heretical worship, one is giving exterior signs of segregation and disapproval. Any participation in liturgical actions would constitute a sign of unity with those who are not in union with the Church. By coming together with them in unity of prayer, in unity of cult, in unity of veneration and worship, Catholics would offer worship with perverse schismatic and heretical ministers. In effect, the Holy Office said that it is by the very coming together with them and joining one's prayer and worship to theirs that one is participating in worship of those who reject the Catholic Church. To participate with those who reject the Faith was therefore forbidden, since there is a danger of perversion and loss of the Catholic faith. There is the very danger of participating in a heretical or schismatic rite, since the participation manifests a sign of disunity from the Church. Participation in heretical or schismatic worship is an occasion of scandal and by participating in their worship, one confirms schismatics and heretics in their errors. The Holy Office therefore observed that the Council of Carthage forbade praying and singing with heretics and that participation in schismatic and heretic worship is "universally prohibited by natural and divine law...[about which] no one has the power to dispense...[and with respect to this participation] nothing excuses." http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2006_AC_Allan.html

2. The eastern Catholics did have law within their respective rites, it just was not codified into a code of canon law. Pope Pius XII did promulgate law that bound the eastern churches in the 1950’s. You could cite any proof you like that supports your claim, if the eastern bishops allowed Catholics to go to schismatic churches to actively participate in schismatic rites, there is absolutely no record of this whatsoever that I am aware of. Since you made the assertion, I asked you to provide proof, which could include statements of eastern bishops, eastern theologians, testimonial evidence, etc. you did not provide any proof to support your assertion.

3. We are only talking about Pre-V2 practices, so there is no need to interpret canons that were promulgated post V2.

4. St Athanasius did not authorize worship with a schismatic sect, which is what we are discussing.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #76 on:** March 23, 2019, 12:14:04 AM »

If only the Pope and the Bishops would consecrate Russia, the Eastern schism would end, and the Greek, Russian, Syrian separated churches would retract their errors, return to communion with Rome, and become Catholic again. That's what we should pray for. The promised Triumph of the Immaculate Heart and the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith along with the end of the Photian schism. Till then, there will be no peace in the world or in the Church. God has shown the Hierarchs what is the way to Heaven's Peace. It is up to them now to choose that path, and our duty is to pray and sacrifice for it. Eastern Catholic is a legitimate option. Lapsing into the Eastern Heterodox schism and heresy is not. That is false ecuмenism. It is they who left the Church and they who have to return.

Orthodox have fallen into error on mainly two or three points, but they have not retracted it for centuries, even after the Second Council of Lyons and the Ecuмenical Council of Florence were called to correct them; they at first signed the decrees, then later relapsed. Mainly on Filioque and Purgatory; then, on the Immaculate Conception and also in consequence on original sin. Their own Liturgies teach them the Mother of God, Whom they call Theotokos, is absolutely sinless. But they interpret the Liturgy wrongly. They say it refers only to Her Personal Sinlessness. And others say differently. Then their Liturgy teaches them to pray for the departed to be purified from sins. But they don't want to believe in purgatory and historically raised some false objections to it. The Eastern Liturgies are all good. Orthodox have fallen into some errors as a result of their long separation from Rome, the Mother Church. Our Lady has a plan for their return.

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #77 on:** March 23, 2019, 02:01:11 AM »

To be clear, this thread was about Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #78 on:** March 23, 2019, 04:41:34 PM »

The holy office is clear that in danger of death one can receive sacraments from the orthodox. since sacraments are always received in eastern churches within the the liturgy it logically follows that you would have to attend the liturgy to get the sacraments. this is sufficient to show that attendance at orthodox liturgy actually could happen pre VII.
you should be careful who you call schismatic especially as a Traditional Catholic. There are whole groups in church history who were labeled schismatic who said that new definitions being circulated were not traditional. Whole swathes of western Christendom declared Leo the Great a heretic for his definition..

In Eastern Europe and Egypt almost no Eastern Catholic attended Orthodox services in the rest of the eastern world however attendance of Catholic and Orthodox ( mostly Oriental Antiochian) at each others liturgy took place frequently. The Holy Office was dealing with the Greeks primarily and with eastern catholics in western and non patriarchal areas. This answer has no bearing on an easterner in his own territory

confederate catholic · « **Reply #79 on:** March 23, 2019, 04:44:44 PM »

my original answer stands, you can not invent your own canon law my rite takes precedence over another rite for my attendance is the rule

confederate catholic · « **Reply #80 on:** March 23, 2019, 04:54:27 PM »

Quote

To be clear, this thread was about Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.

Byzcat, to most people Eastern Catholics are just Latin Catholics with funny vestments. To try to explain legitimate differences in law and theology usually ends with them calling the eastern catholic either a heretic or orthodox so this is the usual progression

Stanley N · « **Reply #81 on:** March 23, 2019, 09:44:40 PM »

Quote from: XavierSem on March 23, 2019, 12:14:04 AM

Orthodox have fallen into some errors as a result of their long separation from Rome, the Mother Church ...

Why are you talking about the Orthodox? Your post doesn't seem to make any sense in this thread.

2Vermont · « **Reply #82 on:** March 24, 2019, 06:40:36 AM »

Quote from: confederate catholic on March 23, 2019, 04:44:44 PM

my original answer stands, you can not invent your own canon law my rite takes precedence over another rite for my attendance is the rule

Can you re-post your answer in a clearer fashion? Your posts are not clear, and I'm not sure whether it's a language thing.

Where does the Catholic Church before Vatican II state that Catholics (Western OR Eastern) can attend schismatic Orthodox liturgies or sacraments outside of the danger of death?

Per the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Eastern Churches:

Each Catholic body has been formed from one of the schismatical ones; their organizations are comparatively late, dating in most cases from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Moreover, although all these Eastern-Rite Catholics of course agrees in the same Catholic Faith we profess, they are not organized as one body. Each branch keeps the rites (with in some cases modifications made at Rome for dogmatic reasons) of the corresponding schismatical body, and has an organization modelled on the same plan. In faith a Catholic Armenian, for instance, is joined to Catholic Chaldees and Copts, and has no more to do with the schismatical Armenians than with Nestorians or Abyssinians. Nor does he forget this fact.

2Vermont · « **Reply #83 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:07:13 AM »

Quote from: confederate catholic on March 23, 2019, 04:54:27 PM

Byzcat, to most people Eastern Catholics are just Latin Catholics with funny vestments. To try to explain legitimate differences in law and theology usually ends with them calling the eastern catholic either a heretic or orthodox so this is the usual progression

This comment leads me to believe that you are now going on the offensive because you do not have the proof for what you are suggesting in this thread. No one here is calling Eastern Catholics schismatic.

So again, provide proof that the Catholic Church (Eastern or otherwise) allowed Catholics to attend schismatic sacraments/liturgies for reasons other than in danger of death.

2Vermont · « **Reply #84 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:32:51 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on March 23, 2019, 02:01:11 AM

To be clear, this thread was about Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.

Yes, it was....until Confederate Catholic posted that an Eastern Catholic can/should attend an Orthodox schismatic liturgy over a Latin Catholic one.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #85 on:** March 24, 2019, 08:19:27 AM »

let's be clear.
1- I said that according to existing law one must attend ones rite or its equivalent (which interpretation is part of the code which has been worked on constantly since 1870, that interpretation always included orthodox) before another rite.

2- Eastern codes are not uniform most are written by the patriarch himself and are not disseminated to the public. For example even though we have a canon of scripture, most rites who were at the same council have different lists

3- In general if someone say Dioscorus Pope of Alexandria was excommunicated the Synod would list their excommunication. It may or may not list his followers as cut off as well it would be on this basis that the faithful would be told they could or could not attend a liturgy.
There would not be anything in writing. I do know for a fact that Rome gave written permission for Maronites and Jesuits to participate with schematics Jacobites and saw the docuмent Pius X gave the Jesuits.
I also never said that I think the faithful should attend any liturgy on a regular basis if they are not being communed

confederate catholic · « **Reply #86 on:** March 24, 2019, 08:28:46 AM »

We did not have protestants so except for the Greeks who are actual schematic the others are mostly not

2Vermont · « **Reply #87 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:35:25 AM »

Quote from: confederate catholic on March 24, 2019, 08:19:27 AM

let's be clear.
1- I said that according to existing law one must attend ones rite or its equivalent (which interpretation is part of the code which has been worked on constantly since 1870, that interpretation always included orthodox) before another rite.

2- Eastern codes are not uniform most are written by the patriarch himself and are not disseminated to the public. For example even though we have a canon of scripture, most rites who were at the same council have different lists

3- In general if someone say Dioscorus Pope of Alexandria was excommunicated the Synod would list their excommunication. It may or may not list his followers as cut off as well it would be on this basis that the faithful would be told they could or could not attend a liturgy.
There would not be anything in writing. I do know for a fact that Rome gave written permission for Maronites and Jesuits to participate with schematics Jacobites and saw the docuмent Pius X gave the Jesuits.
I also never said that I think the faithful should attend any liturgy on a regular basis if they are not being communed

So no proof for your schismatic assertion.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #88 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:55:05 AM »

You fail to understand how eastern canon law works, this is your problem.

1- in the east canon law is not something obligatory like in the Latin Church.
Canon law is something applied by a priest in the way a Dr. applies medicine, not all canons are actually followed. They're only applied by a priest when he is dealing one on one with a layperson, the priest may tell one that they can go to a Greek Orthodox liturgy and tell someone else not to. We simply do not look at a list of laws and self apply. We are not the Dr's of ourselves.

Canons are looked at by bishops and priests as a rudder to steer by not as some rule or regulation, they're ignored frequently.

Two Churches take canons according to the letter, Rome and the Russian (Greek) Orthodox, largely because Latins tend to legalism and the Russians need the canons to (in their mind) justify their schism.

Bellato · « **Reply #89 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:00:19 AM »

Quote

you should be careful who you call schismatic especially as a Traditional Catholic. There are whole groups in church history who were labeled schismatic who said that new definitions being circulated were not traditional. Whole swathes of western Christendom declared Leo the Great a heretic for his definition..

I am very careful about labelling others as schismatic. In this case, though, isn’t it obvious? An organized religious group that openly and publicly rejects the authority of the pope, is clearly a schismatic group.

If there was any doubt, I would refrain from using the term. The orthodox groups all reject the authority of the pope, which makes each of them schismatic.

Author Topic: Eastern Rites (Read 5855 times)

Bellato

Re: Eastern Rites

Nishant Xavier

Re: Eastern Rites

ByzCat3000

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

Stanley N

Re: Eastern Rites

2Vermont

Re: Eastern Rites

2Vermont

Re: Eastern Rites

2Vermont

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

2Vermont

Re: Eastern Rites

confederate catholic

Re: Eastern Rites

Bellato

Re: Eastern Rites