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Author Topic: Eastern Rites  (Read 19275 times)

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Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2019, 11:07:32 PM »
1- I quoted the very article you cited which stated that there were conditions already in place for going to receive sacraments in need

2- You are asking me to quote from canon law which did not exist

3- Canons which do exist are not interpreted by laypersons

4- In the east we cite church fathers, St. Athanasius required his clergy to commune semi arians
1.  You were not talking about receiving sacraments in need, I.e. confession in danger of death, you were asserting that eastern Catholics were permitted to actively participate in the worship of schismatics prior to Vatican II.  The author of the linked article states in his conclusion:

To summarize, we may recall that the Holy Office said that it is not so much a matter of whether schismatic worship contains anything objectionable to the Faith; rather, the problem is the very participation in worship with schismatics.  By participating in schismatic and heretical worship, one is giving exterior signs of segregation and disapproval. Any participation in liturgical actions would constitute a sign of unity with those who are not in union with the Church.  By coming together with them in unity of prayer, in unity of cult, in unity of veneration and worship, Catholics would offer worship with perverse schismatic and heretical ministers.  In effect, the Holy Office said that it is by the very coming together with them and joining one's prayer and worship to theirs that one is participating in worship of those who reject the Catholic Church.  To participate with those who reject the Faith was therefore forbidden, since there is a danger of perversion and loss of the Catholic faith.  There is the very danger of participating in a heretical or schismatic rite, since the participation manifests a sign of disunity from the Church.  Participation in heretical or schismatic worship is an occasion of scandal and by participating in their worship, one confirms schismatics and heretics in their errors.  The Holy Office therefore observed that the Council of Carthage forbade praying and singing with heretics and that participation in schismatic and heretic worship is "universally prohibited by natural and divine law...[about which] no one has the power to dispense...[and with respect to this participation] nothing excuses." http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2006_AC_Allan.html

2.  The eastern Catholics did have law within their respective rites, it just was not codified into a code of canon law.  Pope Pius XII did promulgate law that bound the eastern churches in the 1950’s.  You could cite any proof you like that supports your claim,  if the eastern bishops allowed Catholics to go to schismatic churches to actively participate in schismatic rites, there is absolutely no record of this whatsoever that I am aware of.  Since you made the assertion, I asked you to provide proof, which could include statements of eastern bishops, eastern theologians, testimonial evidence, etc.  you did not provide any proof to support your assertion.

3.  We are only talking about Pre-V2 practices, so there is no need to interpret canons that were promulgated post V2.

4.  St Athanasius did not authorize worship with a schismatic sect, which is what we are discussing.  

Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2019, 12:14:04 AM »
If only the Pope and the Bishops would consecrate Russia, the Eastern schism would end, and the Greek, Russian, Syrian separated churches would retract their errors, return to communion with Rome, and become Catholic again. That's what we should pray for. The promised Triumph of the Immaculate Heart and the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith along with the end of the Photian schism. Till then, there will be no peace in the world or in the Church. God has shown the Hierarchs what is the way to Heaven's Peace. It is up to them now to choose that path, and our duty is to pray and sacrifice for it. Eastern Catholic is a legitimate option. Lapsing into the Eastern Heterodox schism and heresy is not. That is false ecuмenism. It is they who left the Church and they who have to return. 

Orthodox have fallen into error on mainly two or three points, but they have not retracted it for centuries, even after the Second Council of Lyons and the Ecuмenical Council of Florence were called to correct them; they at first signed the decrees, then later relapsed. Mainly on Filioque and Purgatory; then, on the Immaculate Conception and also in consequence on original sin. Their own Liturgies teach them the Mother of God, Whom they call Theotokos, is absolutely sinless. But they interpret the Liturgy wrongly. They say it refers only to Her Personal Sinlessness. And others say differently. Then their Liturgy teaches them to pray for the departed to be purified from sins. But they don't want to believe in purgatory and historically raised some false objections to it. The Eastern Liturgies are all good. Orthodox have fallen into some errors as a result of their long separation from Rome, the Mother Church. Our Lady has a plan for their return.


Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2019, 02:01:11 AM »
To be clear, this thread was about Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.

Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2019, 04:41:34 PM »
The holy office is clear that in danger of death one can receive sacraments from the orthodox. since sacraments are always received in eastern churches within the the liturgy it logically follows that you would have to attend the liturgy to get the sacraments. this is sufficient to show that attendance at orthodox liturgy actually could happen pre VII.
you should be careful who you call schismatic especially as a Traditional Catholic. There are whole groups in church history who were labeled schismatic who said that new definitions being circulated were not traditional. Whole swathes of western Christendom declared Leo the Great a heretic for his definition..

In Eastern Europe and Egypt almost no Eastern Catholic attended Orthodox services in the rest of the eastern world however attendance of Catholic and Orthodox ( mostly Oriental Antiochian) at each others liturgy took place frequently. The Holy Office was dealing with the Greeks primarily and with eastern catholics in western and non patriarchal areas. This answer has no bearing on an easterner in his own territory

Re: Eastern Rites
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2019, 04:44:44 PM »
my original answer stands, you can not invent your own canon law my rite takes precedence over another rite for my attendance is the rule